X-no-Archive:yes But how do you know that the design has quality? Even the most thorough desk checks and peer reviews can miss errors that are only found by testings (and even the most thorough test suite can miss errors that are only found by creative, inquisitive, or slightly clumsy users). Agreed; you don't get it by testing. But good testing shows whether or not it was there by design. And the psychological effect of knowing that one's code is going to be reviewed and tested is that programmers tend to be more careful, at least complying with the letter of the law. And I'm sure one could name a number of other elements that go into the kind of environment that produces quality. I've enjoyed the book "Peopleware", on this very subject. But in the wonderful world of methods and methodologies, testing is an important means of determining that one is producing work of some quality. Greg Stigers http://www.cgiusa.com -----Original Message----- From: Peter da Silva [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 8:17 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: OT: Quality Control at Microsoft-was: Please cut out the M$ ad hominems You don't get quality by testing, you get quality by design... and redesign. You have to be able to throw things away. I don't think Microsoft has ever thrown away a line of code, except by terminating a project completely. -- `-_-' In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva. 'U` "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything." -- [log in to unmask] Disclaimer: WWFD? * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, * * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *