Well said, Art.
I know not having the appropriate paperwork for audit or due-dlligence
during an acquisition would present major problems.
jack
-----Original Message-----
From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Bahrs, Art
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 11:03 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] Licensing Questions Was RE: 2 x
e3000/N4000/400/75 for sale
Hello Jack, Brian, Craig, Brett and All
I removed the Plug alert as this is no longer about selling something
:)
I am still a bit confused... Brett is sounding like one of the sales
people at a used software store I recently visited when I asked about
the actual license for a piece of software (no longer made... But the
company is still around). The answer I got is "they aren't going to
worry about whether you have a license for the software or not they
don't sell it anymore". Note that I wanted to use the license to get
another current software package at the "competitive upgrade rate" which
requires I surrender the competing products license to the seller...
Given the risk to a company, corporation and even and individual
under the current *interpretation* of the laws concerning software
usage... I question if Brett's answer is valid? Even if it is a low
risk... If the moving of the software is not allowed under HP's rules
and the law... Is it worth the risk? (think disgruntled employee
'dropping a dime' about this to the BSA)
Also a point to consider... What would your customers think if you
had to explain to them why you are running a "wee bit loose" on the
interpretation of ownership of software as you try to sell software to
said customer? Will the customer think about just buying a copy from a
reseller?
Security point to consider as well... Have the drives being sold
been truly cleared of data? PHI? PII? Customer data? If not the seller
could be in violation of numerous laws and statutes (as well as the
sales channels potentially). The Buyer could find themselves having to
surrender the drives for the duration of the investigation... Or worse
having to admit in the press they have seen data they shouldn't have :(
SCSI is SCSI as I think Denys has commented... There are Freeware
products that can read the drives... (Think fcopy like) and show
interesting things :(
Final note... Remember, always ask the questions and if the answers
don't make you nice and comfortable... The additional cost or issue may
not be worth it...
Thanks,
Art
Art Bahrs, CISSP
Security Engineer
Providence Health & Services
[log in to unmask]
Phone: 503-216-2722
-----Original Message-----
From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Jack Connor
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 7:14 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: <A PLUG> 2 x e3000/N4000/400/75 for sale
My understanding of the 3000 licensing rules are as follows:
1. MPE FOS, IMAGE, TURBOSTORE, and ALLBASE are tied to the box proper
and
are not transferrable via Software License Transfer procedures to
another
HP3000.
2. MPE Subsystems such as COBOL, FORTRAN, GLANCE, etc may be
transferred to another
box if both boxes are owned by the same entity.
When a 3000 is sold, if the seller possesses (1) HP bill of sale, (2)
Previous Software License Transfer document, or (3) an HP support
contract document current within the last 12 months, the license to use
all items listed above can be transferred to the new owner.
This is of particular value when upgrading a platform in that the
current s/w licenses can be traded in for credit against the upgrade
costs.
HP's RTU program presents a means of resetting the owner of record and
attendant licenses for 3000s that have entered the market without any of
the paperwork mentioned above. I think this was a positive move on HP's
part, however, I feel the pricing is a bit out of line.
If there is no licensing information available with a box, there is no
guarantee that the s/w hasn't been pirated/cloned from other systems.
In my opinion, this is a disservice to a purchaser in that they may have
to purchase their entire s/w complement at full price or close to it.
Jack Connor
-----Original Message-----
From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Brian Donaldson
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 9:42 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] <A PLUG> 2 x e3000/N4000/400/75 for sale
I guess my confusion is that with the "license" what is transferable and
what is not?
If the box has on it, say Cobol, TurboIMAGE, Glance etc. etc., if the
license is not transferable does that mean I don't get that software on
the box if I buy it? Or does it "just" mean I can't call the HP hotline
when the box dies a death (bad disk etc., system failures etc etc.)
Also, if I buy the box from "Joe's Manufacturing Company" will it still
have their name plastered all over it, or will it now have the new
owner's name on it?
Very confused about this "license" terminology and what it means and
doesn't mean....
Brian Donaldson.
On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 16:08:12 -0700, Bahrs, Art
<[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
>Hi Brett :)
> Clarification Question... Are you saying (when you say
>"non-transferable") that the buyer cannot move the license to another
>machine or that the license will not transfer from the seller to the
>buyer? I think I understand you to be saying the former and not the
>latter..
>
>Art "just wondering" Bahrs
>
>Thanks,
>Art
>Art Bahrs, CISSP
>Security Engineer
>Providence Health & Services
>[log in to unmask]
>Phone: 503-216-2722
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>Behalf Of Brett Forsyth
>Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 3:33 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: <A PLUG> 2 x e3000/N4000/400/75 for sale
>
>Hi Brian, just answered you offline, but let me hit the high points
>here as well.
>
>If HP support is not required, then why is the license an issue? There
>are many viable third party companies that can support these units for
>both hardware and the OS - unless HP is a monopoly (and in violation
>the Sherman Anti-Trust Act).
>
>Any HP machine is authorized to use the last running operating system
>that was loaded on it when it was under support - on N class machines
>this is usually 7.0 or 7.5. The OS is not separate from the machine -
>it is part and parcel. Anybody every bought a machine from HP without
>an OS? I don't believe that option is even available. Why should HP
>get a second (third, fourth, fifth,etc.) licensing fee for the same box
>with the same OS? Not like you can pull the OS off your 918 and pop it
>on you new system - without
>paying HP again. So if you can't just walk the OS your new system,
>then
>where does it go - with the old system? Things that make you go
>"hmmmm...".
>
>Machines such as this are typically used for DR or testing, but there
>are still many large organizations that are grabbing any units they can
>find for the last remaining days of their transitions - licensed or
not.
>Survival is the key here and HP no longer supplies the lock. Short term
>rentals where support is included, is another venue for these types of
>machines.
>
>Besides, isn't HP e3000 support an oxymoron these days anyway?
>
>Do not let the HP fear mongers fool you. HP throws around the term
>"legal" in a very loose way, and since they can long longer buy the FBI
>to enforce this, it really is a non-issue. Just because HP says you
>cannot do it, does not mean you can't - legally or otherwise - and
>there are many legal precedents that support this. HP tends to bully
>their customer base around on this issue, but have yet to prove it in a
>court of law, and I doubt they could. IBM tried and lost in the early
>80's, and DEC again in the late 80's.
>
>Basically supply and demand is going on here - and there are not many
>machines left. HP isn't (supposed to be) making any more, and many
>large and small e3000 clients still need critical business solutions
>that HP cannot (or will not) provide.
>
>As far as non-HP software support, it has been my experience that all
>they really want is your model string, SUSN code and an extremely large
>check.
>
>.. and don't get me started on the whole new RTU fiasco...
>
>
>Well, that should get some conversation started....
>
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>
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