Patrick,

the terrorist could walk in thru Mexico. They don't need a phone. 
They can just walk/drive to eachother with phony SSN and phony ID's and 
then talk. Or send e-mails or VoIP?
George Orwell 1984 is right here. The government just uses excuse to use or 
not use their programs to catch criminals.

Michael


On Thu, 11 May 2006 10:30:55 -0400, Patrick McMahon 
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>I believe any carrier that does not comply with this program needs to be
>shut down. There is absolutely no interest in who you call or who calls 
you,
>UNLESS, a known terrorist is talking with you frequently. Then you are
>certainly a suspect and rightly so. I would be outraged if my government 
was
>NOT doing at least this much in its responsibility to provide security for
>me and my family. I'll bet that the terrorists already are well aware of
>this program and have devised ways to frustrate it to some degree. This is
>only connecting DOTS.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Larry Barnes [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 10:09 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] OT: Big Brother (NSA) is really watching and
>collecting
>
>
>
>Yes, it makes perfect sense; after all we are talking about a government
>agency.  It has nothing to do with any political party it has to do with
>government bureaucracy .  After all agencies within any government
>organization work on the MLM principle!  (multiple layers of management)
>The deeper entrenched you are, or the further away from the publics view
>(or top level management) that you are the less likely you will be
>discovered.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>Behalf Of Michael Baier
>Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 6:50 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: [HP3000-L] OT: Big Brother (NSA) is really watching and
>collecting
>
>What a joke the government is:
>On Illegal Immigration they can not share informtion because of "PRIVACY
>=
>
>LAWS" but on the other hand, they do as they please, because of
>"AL-QUEDA= ".
>Does this make sense to anybody?
>Michael
>
>http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20060511/ts_usatoday/nsahasmassivedatab
>a=
>seo
>famericansphonecalls
>
>NSA has massive database of Americans' phone calls By Leslie Cauley, USA
>=
>
>TODAY
>
>The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call
>=
>
>records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T= ,
>Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement
>to= ld USA TODAY.
>
>The NSA program reaches into homes and businesses across the nation by =
>
>amassing information about the calls of ordinary Americans - most of
>whom=
>
>aren't suspected of any crime. This program does not involve the NSA
>listening to or recording conversations. But the spy agency is using the
>=
>
>data to analyze calling patterns in an effort to detect terrorist
>activit= y, sources said in separate interviews.
>
>QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS: The NSA record collection program "It's the
>largest database ever assembled in the world," said one person,=
>
>who, like the others who agreed to talk about the NSA's activities,
>declined to be identified by name or affiliation. The agency's goal is
>"t= o create a database of every call ever made" within the nation's
>borders, =
>
>this person added.
>
>For the customers of these companies, it means that the government has =
>
>detailed records of calls they made - across town or across the country
>-=
>
>to family members, co-workers, business contacts and others.
>
>The three telecommunications companies are working under contract with
>th= e NSA, which launched the program in 2001 shortly after the Sept. 11
>terrorist attacks, the sources said. The program is aimed at identifying
>=
>
>and tracking suspected terrorists, they said.
>
>The sources would talk only under a guarantee of anonymity because the
>NS= A program is secret.
>
>Air Force Gen. Michael Hayden, nominated Monday by President Bush to
>beco= me the director of the CIA, headed the NSA from March 1999 to
>April 2005. In=
>
>that post, Hayden would have overseen the agency's domestic
>call-tracking=
>
>program. Hayden declined to comment about the program.
>
>The NSA's domestic program, as described by sources, is far more
>expansiv= e than what the White House has acknowledged. Last year, Bush
>said he had =
>
>authorized the NSA to eavesdrop - without warrants - on international
>cal= ls and international e-mails of people suspected of having links to
>terroris= ts when one party to the communication is in the USA. Warrants
>have also not=
>
>been used in the NSA's efforts to create a national call database.
>
>In defending the previously disclosed program, Bush insisted that the
>NSA=
>
>was focused exclusively on international calls. "In other words," Bush =
>
>explained, "one end of the communication must be outside the United
>States."
>
>As a result, domestic call records - those of calls that originate and =
>
>terminate within U.S. borders - were believed to be private.
>
>Sources, however, say that is not the case. With access to records of
>billions of domestic calls, the NSA has gained a secret window into the
>=
>
>communications habits of millions of Americans. Customers' names, street
>=
>
>addresses and other personal information are not being handed over as
>par= t of NSA's domestic program, the sources said. But the phone
>numbers the NS= A collects can easily be cross-checked with other
>databases to obtain that =
>
>information.
>
>Don Weber, a senior spokesman for the NSA, declined to discuss the
>agency= 's operations. "Given the nature of the work we do, it would be
>irresponsibl= e to comment on actual or alleged operational issues;
>therefore, we have no=
>
>information to provide," he said. "However, it is important to note that
>=
>
>NSA takes its legal responsibilities seriously and operates within the =
>
>law."
>
>The White House would not discuss the domestic call-tracking program.
>"There is no domestic surveillance without court approval," said=
>
>Dana Perino, deputy press secretary, referring to actual eavesdropping.
>
>She added that all national intelligence activities undertaken by the
>federal government "are lawful, necessary and required for the pursuit
>of=
>
>al-Qaeda and affiliated terrorists." All government-sponsored
>intelligenc= e activities "are carefully reviewed and monitored," Perino
>said. She also =
>
>noted that "all appropriate members of Congress have been briefed on the
>=
>
>intelligence efforts of the United States."
>
>The government is collecting "external" data on domestic phone calls but
>= is not intercepting "internals," a term for the actual content of the
>communication, according to a U.S. intelligence official familiar with
>th= e program. This kind of data collection from phone companies is not
>uncommo= n; it's been done before, though never on this large a scale,
>the official =
>
>said. The data are used for "social network analysis," the official
>said,=
>
>meaning to study how terrorist networks contact each other and how they
>a= re tied together.
>
>Carriers uniquely positioned AT&T recently merged with SBC and kept t=
>he AT&T name. Verizon, BellSouth and AT&T are the nation's three big=
>gest telecommunications companies; they provide local and wireless phone
>servi= ce to more than 200 million customers.
>
>The three carriers control vast networks with the latest communications
>=
>
>technologies. They provide an array of services: local and long-distance
>=
>
>calling, wireless and high-speed broadband, including video. Their
>direct=
>
>access to millions of homes and businesses has them uniquely positioned
>t= o help the government keep tabs on the calling habits of Americans.
>
>Among the big telecommunications companies, only Qwest has refused to
>hel= p the NSA, the sources said. According to multiple sources, Qwest
>declined = to participate because it was uneasy about the legal
>implications of handing=
>
>over customer information to the government without warrants.
>
>Qwest's refusal to participate has left the NSA with a hole in its
>database. Based in Denver, Qwest provides local phone service to 14
>milli= on customers in 14 states in the West and Northwest. But AT&amp;T and
>Verizo= n also provide some services - primarily long-distance and
>wireless - to people =
>
>who live in Qwest's region. Therefore, they can provide the NSA with at
>=
>
>least some access in that area.
>
>Created by President Truman in 1952, during the Korean War, the NSA is =
>
>charged with protecting the United States from foreign security threats.
>=
>
>The agency was considered so secret that for years the government
>refused=
>
>to even confirm its existence. Government insiders used to joke that NSA
>=
>
>stood for "No Such Agency."
>
>In 1975, a congressional investigation revealed that the NSA had been
>intercepting, without warrants, international communications for more
>tha= n 20 years at the behest of the CIA and other agencies. The spy
>campaign, =
>
>code-named "Shamrock," led to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act
>=
>
>(FISA), which was designed to protect Americans from illegal
>eavesdroppin= g.
>
>Enacted in 1978, FISA lays out procedures that the U.S. government must
>=
>
>follow to conduct electronic surveillance and physical searches of
>people=
>
>believed to be engaged in espionage or international terrorism against
>th= e United States. A special court, which has 11 members, is
>responsible for =
>
>adjudicating requests under FISA.
>
>Over the years, NSA code-cracking techniques have continued to improve =
>
>along with technology. The agency today is considered expert in the
>practice of "data mining" - sifting through reams of information in
>searc= h of patterns. Data mining is just one of many tools NSA analysts
>and mathematicians use to crack codes and track international
>communications.=
>
>
>Paul Butler, a former U.S. prosecutor who specialized in terrorism
>crimes= , said FISA approval generally isn't necessary for government
>data-mining =
>
>operations. "FISA does not prohibit the government from doing data
>mining= ,"
>said Butler, now a partner with the law firm Akin Gump Strauss Hauer
>&amp= ; Feld in Washington, D.C.
>
>The caveat, he said, is that "personal identifiers" - such as names,
>
>Social Security numbers and street addresses - can't be included as part
>= of the search. "That requires an additional level of probable cause,"
>he sai= d.
>
>The usefulness of the NSA's domestic phone-call database as a
>counterterrorism tool is unclear. Also unclear is whether the database
>ha= s been used for other purposes.
>
>The NSA's domestic program raises legal questions. Historically, AT&T=
>and the regional phone companies have required law enforcement agencies
>to =
>
>present a court order before they would even consider turning over a
>customer's calling data. Part of that owed to the personality of the old
>=
>
>Bell Telephone System, out of which those companies grew.
>
>Ma Bell's bedrock principle - protection of the customer - guided the
>company for decades, said Gene Kimmelman, senior public policy director
>o= f Consumers Union. "No court order, no customer information - period.
>That'= s how it was for decades," he said.
>
>The concern for the customer was also based on law: Under Section 222 of
>=
>
>the Communications Act, first passed in 1934, telephone companies are
>prohibited from giving out information regarding their customers'
>calling=
>
>habits: whom a person calls, how often and what routes those calls take
>t= o reach their final destination. Inbound calls, as well as wireless
>calls, =
>
>also are covered.
>
>The financial penalties for violating Section 222, one of many privacy =
>
>reinforcements that have been added to the law over the years, can be
>stiff. The
>
>Federal Communications Commission, the nation's top telecommunications =
>
>regulatory agency, can levy fines of up to $130,000 per day per
>violation= , with a cap of $1.325 million per violation. The FCC has no
>hard definitio= n of "violation." In practice, that means a single
>"violation" could cover =
>
>one customer or 1 million.
>
>In the case of the NSA's international call-tracking program, Bush
>signed=
>
>an executive order allowing the NSA to engage in eavesdropping without a
>=
>
>warrant. The president and his representatives have since argued that an
>=
>
>executive order was sufficient for the agency to proceed. Some civil
>liberties groups, including the American Civil Liberties Union,
>disagree.=
>
>
>Companies approached
>The NSA's domestic program began soon after the Sept. 11 attacks,
>accordi=
>ng
>to the sources. Right around that time, they said, NSA representatives =
>
>approached the nation's biggest telecommunications companies. The agency
>=
>
>made an urgent pitch: National security is at risk, and we need your
>help=
>
>to protect the country from attacks.
>
>The agency told the companies that it wanted them to turn over their
>"cal=
>l-
>detail records," a complete listing of the calling histories of their
>millions of customers. In addition, the NSA wanted the carriers to
>provid=
>e
>updates, which would enable the agency to keep tabs on the nation's
>calli=
>ng
>habits.
>
>The sources said the NSA made clear that it was willing to pay for the =
>
>cooperation. AT&T, which at the time was headed by C. Michael Armstro=
>ng,
>agreed to help the NSA. So did BellSouth, headed by F. Duane Ackerman;
>SB=
>C,
>headed by Ed Whitacre; and Verizon, headed by Ivan Seidenberg.
>
>With that, the NSA's domestic program began in earnest.
>
>AT&T, when asked about the program, replied with a comment prepared f=
>or USA
>TODAY: "We do not comment on matters of national security, except to say
>=
>
>that we only assist law enforcement and government agencies charged with
>=
>
>protecting national security in strict accordance with the law."
>
>In another prepared comment, BellSouth said: "BellSouth does not provide
>=
>
>any confidential customer information to the NSA or any governmental
>agen=
>cy
>without proper legal authority."
>
>Verizon, the USA's No. 2 telecommunications company behind AT&T, gave=
> this
>statement: "We do not comment on national security matters, we act in
>ful=
>l
>compliance with the law and we are committed to safeguarding our
>customer=
>s'
>privacy."
>
>Qwest spokesman Robert Charlton said: "We can't talk about this. It's a
>=
>
>classified situation."
>
>In December, The New York Times revealed that Bush had authorized the
>NSA=
>
>to wiretap, without warrants, international phone calls and e-mails that
>=
>
>travel to or from the USA. The following month, the Electronic Frontier
>=
>
>Foundation, a civil liberties group, filed a class-action lawsuit
>against=
>
>AT&T. The lawsuit accuses the company of helping the NSA spy on U.S. =
>phone
>customers.
>
>Last month, U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales alluded to that
>possibility. Appearing at a
>
>House Judiciary Committee hearing, Gonzales was asked whether he thought
>=
>
>the White House has the legal authority to monitor domestic traffic
>witho=
>ut
>a warrant. Gonzales' reply: "I wouldn't rule it out." His comment marked
>=
>
>the first time a Bush appointee publicly asserted that the White House =
>
>might have that authority.
>
>Similarities in programs
>
>The domestic and international call-tracking programs have things in
>common, according to the sources. Both are being conducted without
>warran=
>ts
>and without the approval of the FISA court. The Bush administration has
>=
>
>argued that FISA's procedures are too slow in some cases. Officials,
>including Gonzales, also make the case that the USA Patriot Act gives
>the=
>m
>broad authority to protect the safety of the nation's citizens.
>
>The chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Sen. Pat Roberts
>(news=
>,
>bio, voting record), R-Kan., would not confirm the existence of the
>program. In a statement, he said, "I can say generally, however, that
>our=
>
>subcommittee has been fully briefed on all aspects of the Terrorist
>Surveillance Program. ... I remain convinced that the program authorized
>=
>by
>the president is lawful and absolutely necessary to protect this nation
>=
>
>from future attacks."
>
>The chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Rep. Pete Hoekstra, R-
>Mich., declined to comment.
>
>One company differs
>
>One major telecommunications company declined to participate in the
>program: Qwest.
>
>According to sources familiar with the events, Qwest's CEO at the time,
>J=
>oe
>Nacchio, was deeply troubled by the NSA's assertion that Qwest didn't
>nee=
>d
>a court order - or approval under FISA - to proceed. Adding to the
>tensio=
>n,
>Qwest was unclear about who, exactly, would have access to its
>customers'=
>
>information and how that information might be used.
>
>Financial implications were also a concern, the sources said. Carriers
>th=
>at
>illegally divulge calling information can be subjected to heavy fines.
>Th=
>e
>NSA was asking Qwest to turn over millions of records. The fines, in the
>=
>
>aggregate, could have been substantial.
>
>The NSA told Qwest that other government agencies, including the
>
>FBI, CIA and DEA, also might have access to the database, the sources
>sai=
>d.
>As a matter of practice, the NSA regularly shares its information -
>known=
>
>as "product" in intelligence circles - with other intelligence groups.
>Ev=
>en
>so, Qwest's lawyers were troubled by the expansiveness of the NSA
>request=
>,
>the sources said.
>
>The NSA, which needed Qwest's participation to completely cover the
>country, pushed back hard.
>
>Trying to put pressure on Qwest, NSA representatives pointedly told
>Qwest=
>
>that it was the lone holdout among the big telecommunications companies.
>=
>It
>also tried appealing to Qwest's patriotic side: In one meeting, an NSA =
>
>representative suggested that Qwest's refusal to contribute to the
>databa=
>se
>could compromise national security, one person recalled.
>
>In addition, the agency suggested that Qwest's foot-dragging might
>affect=
>
>its ability to get future classified work with the government. Like
>other=
>
>big telecommunications companies, Qwest already had classified contracts
>=
>
>and hoped to get more.
>
>Unable to get comfortable with what NSA was proposing, Qwest's lawyers =
>
>asked NSA to take its proposal to the FISA court. According to the
>source=
>s,
>the agency refused.
>
>The NSA's explanation did little to satisfy Qwest's lawyers. "They told
>=
>
>(Qwest) they didn't want to do that because FISA might not agree with
>them," one person recalled. For similar reasons, this person said, NSA =
>
>rejected Qwest's suggestion of getting a letter of authorization from
>the=
>
>U.S. attorney general's office. A second person confirmed this version
>of=
>
>events.
>
>In June 2002, Nacchio resigned amid allegations that he had misled
>investors about Qwest's financial health. But Qwest's legal questions
>abo=
>ut
>the NSA request remained.
>
>Unable to reach agreement, Nacchio's successor, Richard Notebaert,
>finall=
>y
>pulled the plug on the NSA talks in late 2004, the sources said.
>
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