Bruce, please do not worry about taking my side; you are simply defending
what you consider to be reality.  It just happens that you and I are aware
of the same reality here.

You will notice that I didn't say "truth."  I said reality for a reason.
The asbestos scare was driven forward, bulldozing any inkling of impartial
investigation, by militants intent on a certain agenda.  Research into the
matter is only in one direction. You figure out which one.

Indeed, the blue asbestos is 500 times more likely to cause mesothelioma
than the white asbestos and 50 times more likely to cause lung cancer.  Blue
asbestos hasn't been used in NA since the 1930s.  Also, cigarette smoking
appears to be a required contributing factor in order to get the above
diseases from asbestos inhalation.

However, in the panic to rip out asbestos that was safely used in buildings,
homes and schools, the government mandated its removal at extreme costs and
creating huge health problems.  Who can forget the pictures of asbestos
removal workers encased in "spacesuits" looking for and disturbing asbestos
in classrooms full of kids?

Yes, asbestos can be a health hazard when it is mined and when it is
disturbed.  If left alone, it's inert and safe, and highly useful.  It has
been in use for centuries for a reason.

If you do a search on mesothelioma on the web, you will uncover a myriad
lawyers web sites, dedicated to suing companies.  That's who won.

These asbestos removal mandates cost the taxpayer hundreds of billions of
dollars and deeply affected the school budgets all across the nation.  In
effect, we transferred huge sums of money from school budgets to lawyers and
then we complain about the state of education.  :-)

In the final analysis, we lost the space shuttle Challenger and 3000 people
at the WTC because of mandates that made lawyers richer.

What happened with asbestos is the same that happened with DDT and CFCs.  In
the first case, we can no longer use what had been considered a cheap and
safe miracle compound, to control disease-bearing mosquitoes and so, the
world loses 1 to 2 million people needlessly every year.  In the latter
case, we can no longer use a cheap, safe, inert method of refrigeration (and
other uses,) forcing us to use more dangerous alternatives, all on the basis
of bad or at the very least, highly questionable science.

As for Kyoto, ask yourself what is the biggest "greenhouse effect" gas in
the atmosphere.  Go from there.

My point is that "common knowledge" or "conventional wisdom" about
scientific issues is not always right.  Our knowledge expands all the time
yet we cling to myths because we are bullied into doing so.  In many
respects, we have not come very far from the folks who believed the Earth
was at the center of the universe and/or flat.  Whilst we may not burn
heretics (right away), we can make sure to stifle the voices of dissent.

And that is very sad.

Denys

-----Original Message-----
From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
Of Bruce Collins
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 10:07 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] OT: Off-topic, but not by much (Part I)

John Pitman wrote:


> Denys:-
>
> "  Why else do you have farces like Kyoto, DDT, CFCs and asbestos bans,
> and
> other such things that impact our lives but have no scientific basis?"
[snip]
>
>Who can you point us at that can credibly
> rebutt the link between asbestos and mesothelioma please?

Much as I hate to take Denys' side, on this particular issue I think that
there was an over-reaction and over generalization to the dangers of
asbestos in North America.

I was working as an Industrial Hygienist in at a copper smelter in Flin Flon
when the asbestos scare hit and asbestos removal became a big part of my
working life. Mesothelioma is linked to crocidolite (blue asbestos) which
mainly comes from South Africa. Most of the asbestos used in North America
is chrysotile (white asbestos) which in North America comes from Quebec.
White asbestos still increases the risk to asbestosis but that isn't
anywhere near as scary as mesothelioma, which is a cancer of the pleural
lining of the lung and almost always results in a painful death within a
year of its detection.

The asbestos scare resulted in the removal and ban in all sorts of
relatively innocuous uses of asbestos, such as in asbestos cement and tiles
where the fibres are unlikely to become airborne except when actually
working the material (e.g. cutting asbestos cement pipes). The ban has
pretty much killed the industry and the town of Asbestos Quebec.

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