On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 19:37:24 +1000, David Strike
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>On Wednesday, June 25, 2003 4:54 PM, Reef Fish wrote:
>
>(snip)

>Mate!  I agree with everything that you say about self-responsibility.

Not sure if you do, but I'll settle for you saying that you do.  :-))

That's the crux of the entire discussion for me.  I am a DIE HARD
on self responsibility and self reliance, and I preach THAT gospel
every chance I get.


> My main concern is the image presented of diving when an operator
>responds to the media in an inappropriate way. :-)

To tell the truth that some divers did it to themselves when the
media is out to crucify the operator unjustifiably?

>(snip)
>> >> What was Hasson supposed to do other than refuting the false
>> >> allegations and put blame where blame belong?

You didn't really have a good answer for that.

>But accepting that he was the media spokesperson for his organisation
>then, it seems to me, he handled it very badly! :-)

Only to the extent that he wasn't a very good politician, perhaps.
He had a little too much of MY style.  :-)  You want him to
sugar coat everything, hide the hideous truth that some divers
SHOULDN'T be divers, and the industry is sparkling clean and
everyone will live happily thereafter once the incident is
forgotten ... until the next time.



>(snip)
>> >> These Dive Masters are nothing more then Dive GUIDES.

>>On
>> liveaboards such as Cocos, there are TWO DMs and 19 divers.  They
>> give the briefing.  They are in the water to guide and shoot
>> photos of divers.  But DON'T expect them to be baby sitters for
>> incompetent divers!
>
>It's a fact of life that, in a growing activity, there will always be new
>divers, or those whose previous diving experience hasn't equipped them to
>handle the new environment.

Then they SHOULDN'T go places like Cocos and dive above their heads!

Remember "Know YOUR limits and dive WITHIN them?"   :-)



>A good DM should be able to establish which
>divers *might* need looking out for and - without being obtrusive
>about it -keep an eye on those individuals.

They do that.  But it's impossible to keep everyone alive that way.
There was a diver at the Tahiti Aggressor who had done only 8
dives after certification.  She didn't belong there!!  To her
credit, she sat out most of the dives.  That's the way it SHOULD
be if someone is in that situation of being in the wrong place
at the wrong time.


Jay was a good DM when I first dived Cocos.  He reminded divers
their SELF responsibility to not get into trouble by saying
something like, "The closest chamber is 300 miles away.  If
you get into trouble, you'll ruin the vacation of everyone
else because everyone will have to go back with you."

Did you read my report?   There was no "check out" on the
first dive.  Everyone THERE was supposed to know what they
were doing.  Jay plunged to 130 fsw on the first dive taking
picture of a hammerhead that was there.  I went along
comforably with him there, and below.

If any of the divers above got into trouble as those two did,
what would Strike have said???   That he should have been up
there watching them?  Watching WHOM?  No SIree ... that's
just NOT the way dives are done there.  It's not, and it
shouldn't be.  EVERYONE takes care of themselves!

No one got into trouble that week, and the next week, and
every week for over 10 years until those two Bozos showed up.

It's the SAME dangerous diving conditions.  The SAME currents.
The SAME dive sites.


>
>> There's no way around it.  They CAN'T babysit all 19 divers.
>> Each one of those divers should be responsible for THEMSELVES.
>
>True!  But presumably there's some sort of procedure in place to determine
>the experience and skill level of the divers - in that particular
>environment - and then to unobtrusively watch out for  those people?

To tell them unobtrusively that they shouldn't get into the water? :-)

Yeah, that'll work, NOT!



>> >To my way of thinking, paying customers exposed to a new environment
>> >deserve more respect than that.

The respect they get is to be TRUSTED that they would exercise SELF
RESPECT by exercising SELF responsibility.

>> They may work around some easy, non-current dive sites, but it just
>> doesn't work that way at all at Cocos, or the Tahiti Passes, or
>> a few other sites of rapid current!  The divers can spread over
>> a MILE during the course of a dive.  You want 19 DMs wating 19
>> divers?   Don't be ridiculous.
>
>Of course, I don't!  :-)
>
>But if I operated a vessel, I would expect my DM's to be able to determine
>whether the dive was safe and within the qualifications and recent
>experience of my customers.

You would be in the wrong place in Cocos.  :-)  It doesn't work THERE!
Actually, it doesn't work that way anywhere.  If you get a bunch
of incompetent and irresponsible divers, even if you tow each them
on a short rope, some of them may still drown.
>
>> >(snip)


>
>> That's why I said in the wake of the incident, it's time for everyone
>> to WAKE UP to the fact that a certified diver is supposed to be a
>> RESPONSIBLE diver, and not a whiny baby blaming a DM or a crew
>> for his own incompetence!
>
>I tend to agree - unless it's truly warranted.  Which is why I earlier
wrote
>that neither is it Hasson's responsibility to apportion blame.
>
>> Condoning such "always blame someone else" syndrone, with no self
>> soul searching on the ills of the system and society, is the WORST
>> thing that can happen before, during, and after any such incident.
>
>Agreed!  :-)))
>
>Strike

On that final note of agreement, though we still have plenty of
other places of "minor" disagreements about responsibility of
DM and diver, I think this is as good a time and place to
bring OUR (you and me) discussion of this subject to a close.

I yield the floor to other distinquished and undistinguished
buzos on this list.  :-)

ElPezNeubo