Hi
I started to reply to a number of personal mail as best I could, but I
didn't realise what affect my comments would make.
Mathew wrote:
"At most I will accept the premise that the United States CONTRIBUTED to
the situations around the world that have given rise to homicide
bombers, be it explosives strapped around their waist or aircraft fully
loaded with fuel as their instruments of attack and destruction. To say
that the United States "created" the situation of the current methods of
terrorism is simply another example of blame America for all the ills of
the world, ignoring your own country's contribution to the current state
of the world."
This is an extremely hard point to argue, as what actually solely creates a
situation and I think Mathew makes an excellent point. I'm just pleased
that at least you would admit that American contributed to the situation.
Again you make an excellent point about Russia. Russia has probably, with
China, the worst record on 'Human Rights' in the world. 20 million Russians
died in the W.W.II, a number by it's own government. I suppose the
difference is, that neither Russia or China claim to be the worlds saviour,
and their people almost admit as much (In my experience).
Unfortunately Mathew then says:
"If America had not entered
World War II and come to the rescue of Europe from Fascism and Nazism,
he and his family would be either speaking German with a Nazi accent or
have gone up in smoke long ago."
This is a nutshell, is why a lot of the world have a problem with the US. I
can't speak for every European, but I certainly appreciate the US
contribution and personal sacrifice in W.W.II. Obviously we will never
know, but maybe we (Europe, Russia, N Africa, Australasia, Asia) wouldn't
have won without the US. The problem is, people in America feel they won
the war single handed and as you say, rescued us. This is what offends
people; American had no interest in entering the War, even though Europe was
being bombed and invaded and the Jewish people were being victimised. It
only when the 'Japs' attacked the US, did anything happen. Again this has
parallels with 9/11.
I'd like to think that for once the good beat the bad. The US, Russia,
Britain, etc, got together and, for once, clearly overthrew evil.
Another way to look at your remark is, maybe you'd be speaking Japanese or
German without Europe and Russia.
-----------------
The best Email was from Ken:
(1) The U.S. did NOT arm or train Iraq's military.
Does anyone remember Irangate (as it was called in Britain), where Mr Regan,
desperately tried to pretend that the US didn't sell arms to IRAN (and IRAQ
at the same time).
Actually I'm a bit surprised by the response, when all the Americans I work
with, tell me it's common knowledge that the US supplied Iraq with weapons
and training.
(2) The U.S. did arm and train fighters against the Soviet invasion of
Afghanistan, including Osama bin Laden, but I fail to see how that made him
hate us. Nor did the U.S. government train him to hijack airplanes.
Again, where exactly do you think the Afgans got 'Stinger' missiles from
then. Again to me this is accepted as fact isn't it. I'll check the CNN
website. I don't think OBL has a pilots license.
(3) The reasons that bin Laden gives for attacking the U.S. are
(a) the U.S. supports Israel and
(b) the U.S. has non-Muslim "infidel" troops on Saudi Arabian territory.
(4) The reason so many people hate the U.S. is because we have an active
rather than isolationist foreign policy. You will always make somebody mad
when you intervene in the world. People blame you for things you do and
things you don't do. Everything seems to be your fault when you're in
charge. In the short term an isolationist foreign policy would reduce enmity
against the U.S., but it has been tried before with dire long-term results.
(5) For example, why are U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia? Because Iraq invaded
Kuwait. Should we have done nothing or just joined U.N. sanctions against
Iraq (look at how successful those have been)? By now Sadam Hussein would
have had nuclear weapons and have effective control over the entire Persian
Gulf. I'm skeptical that that would be a better situation than what we have
now.
Wonderful, sorry, So, has America captured OBL, no, has the US overthrown
Saddam, no. Why do think the 'West' went to war in Kuwait.......yes that's
right...
It has absolutely nothing to do with Human rights, if it did then why is
Saddam still in charge of Iraq.
I will state again, I honestly don't hate the U.S. or their people. I am
just very honest that U.S. policy is generally a bit naive and can be
offensive. My country of birth, Britain, goes along with all of this so I
have no patriotic agenda. I would just ask, as IT people, question
everything you hear.
-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Perdue [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 30 May 2002 18:02
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] OT:RE: [HP3000-L] How To Stop Suicide
Terrorists...
Fellow list participants: Normally a reader, I cannot let this pass
without comment.
Richard Barker wrote:
>
<...snip...>
> The American government is responsible for the training and supplying of
> arms to Iraq and Afghanistan, because at the time Iraq was fighting Iran
and
> Afghanistan was fighting Russia. Maybe the US should examine it's own
> policies, before declaring a war on terrorism, a situation that it
created.
At most I will accept the premise that the United States CONTRIBUTED to
the situations around the world that have given rise to homicide
bombers, be it explosives strapped around their waist or aircraft fully
loaded with fuel as their instruments of attack and destruction. To say
that the United States "created" the situation of the current methods of
terrorism is simply another example of blame America for all the ills of
the world, ignoring your own country's contribution to the current state
of the world.
With regards to the Mossad or CIA killing the immediate families of
homicide bombers and other terrorists, it is said the USSR routinely did
this and the policy is largely the reason you rarely saw the USSR
attacked or any members of Soviet society traveling abroad.
What people like Mr. Barker need to finally realize as some of the
population in the US have finally realized is the militant Islamic
factions seek the destruction of Western society to clear the way for
the return of Islamic domination of the world. They would like to see
the return of the Ottoman Empire worldwide. Terrorists would just as
much like to blow up Mr. Barker and his family as an example and tool to
destroy the West as they would families in America. Mr. Barker - you are
as much a target as anyone in America.
Also a little bit of history for Mr. Barker: If America had not entered
World War II and come to the rescue of Europe from Fascism and Nazism,
he and his family would be either speaking German with a Nazi accent or
have gone up in smoke long ago. Personally I tag the collective "Europe"
attitude exhibited by persons such as Mr. Barker (blame America) with a
massive guilt complex from 1) having to be saved, unable to do it
themselves and 2) as a result having a false superiority complex to mask
the underlying inferiority complex. And yes, I've traveled in central
Europe extensively the last four years and studied it the last 20+
years.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Satam Marwan UL-Ramman [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 30 May 2002 03:17
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [HP3000-L] How To Stop Suicide Terrorists... __`_ juspuwih
>
> *** Proposal ***
> -
> For every act of suicide terrorism inflected against American citizens,
the
> CIA should clandestinely arrange for the execution of the terrorist's
> immediate family.
> -
> Abhorrent as this may seem, it's quite possibly the only thing that can
> vitiate the incentives currently afforded these misguided individuals.
> -
> Right now, a prospective suicide bomber is motivated by the prospect of
the
> family being enriched monetarily by his actions and the prestige of being
> regarded as a 'Martyr'. That thinking is likely to change radically if he
> knows his actions would surely result in his wife, children and parents
> being murdered in retribution by the Mossad or the CIA.
> -
> If we're going to call this a war on "Terrorism", than we should start
> fighting it like one!
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