[log in to unmask] wrote:
: Does this mean I can start telecommuting now? If my job can be done by
: someone in another time zone, I must be able to do it from the suburbs.
: Greg Stigers
: http://www.cgiusa.com
: > -----Original Message-----
: > From: Jerry Leslie [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
: > Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 12:47 PM
: > To: [log in to unmask]
: > Subject: Re: FTC approves HP-Compaq merger
: >
: <snip>
: >
: > Professional people in the computer field, and those people whose jobs
: > are IT-enabled will become an endangered species shortly, thanks to
: > offshore outsourcing, where employers move THEIR jobs to
: > India, Russia, China, etc...
From leslie Thu Mar 7 17:03:23 2002
Subject: Re: OT: FTC approves HP-Compaq merger
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 17:03:23 -0600 (CST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
from "[log in to unmask]" at Mar 07, 2002 05:40:41 PM
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>
> Does this mean I can start telecommuting now? If my job can be done by
> someone in another time zone, I must be able to do it from the suburbs.
Offshore outsourcing isn't about people telecommuting from another country.
The entire job, including networks, computers, support staff, is relocated
to another country where pay scales are much lower.
The U.S. government and all other G7 countries provide insurance against
political risk of offshore ventures:
http://www.opic.gov/
The Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC)
"The Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC) is an independent
self-sustaining U.S. Government agency that sells political risk
insurance and project financing to encourage private investment by
U.S. companies in some 140 emerging economies around the world..."
Canada must have a similar group.
IIRC, there are other government programs that give tax relief to companies
setting up offshore venures.
> Why not just hire college Computer Science majors for the same money?
Where can a company get CS majors for $ 150-300 US/MONTH ?
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1006-200-8324464.html
India becoming world's back office - Tech News - CNET.com
"...NASSCOM estimates that about 68,000 people are employed in
the Indian IT-enabled services industry but forecasts this could
rise to 1.1 million by 2008.
With starting monthly salaries of $165 to $210, the opportunities are
good for many of India's job-seeking graduates.
Several companies such as HSBC, Standard Chartered Bank, American
Express and British Airways are setting up back-office processing
centers in India.
Indian IT companies like Wipro, HCL Technologies, Mphasis BFL and
private telecom group Bharti Enterprises are among a few that have
announced plans to expand their services to the IT-enabled business...."
And some of the Indian groups are at SEI Level 5...
http://www.computerworld.com/cwi/story/0,1199,NAV47_STO41512,00.html
'Made in India' a new sign of software quality | Computerworld New &
Feature Stories
"...And then you have the Indian software industry. Recent data I have
seen says that of the top two dozen or so software development
facilities rated at Level 5 -- the highest level on the 1-to-5 process
maturity scale established by the Software Engineering Institute (SEI)
at Carnegie Mellon University -- 11 are in India. (One is in Japan,
and most of the rest are in the U.S.) The 11 Indian firms include
U.S.-owned subsidiaries such as Motorola India Electronics Ltd. and
IBM Global Services India and local companies such as Satyam Computer
Services Ltd., Tata Consultancy Services and Wipro Infotech.
[snip]
The bottom line for U.S. managers? Buy Indian software, set up
software facilities there and study how India has made progress so
quickly in software quality."
Many companies have development centers in India and other countries...
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/Press/2001/Feb01/02-22IndiaPR.asp
Microsoft India Development Center at the Heart of Microsoft. NET
Development Efforts
And I haven't mentioned the H-1B visa program, where immigrant IT workers
come into the U.S., many are paid less than the prevailing wage, because
the unethical employers know that the H-1B laws are not enforced.
The attached articles give some hope - the bright kids are avoiding
science, computer science, math, etc.
What's happening now to IT and IT-enabled jobs is the same thing that
happened to manufacturing jobs; e.g. making televisions.
--Jerry Leslie (my opinions are strictly my own)
"Grandpa, what was the middle class ?"
=============================================================================
From: Larry <[log in to unmask]>
Newsgroups: alt.computer.consultants
Subject: Re: Are We Really Exporting Jobs? Some Inconvenient Facts for Some
Xenophobes, Protectionists and Anti-globalists
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All I can say about this stuff is simply that I have told grade school
and high school and college people for the last year or more. Do NOT
hoose IT or Science as a career path !!!
With the US Gov't importing three million IT workers a year, for each
of the past two years, it just makes no sense to choose IT or Science
as a career field. There is no future in it for the younger
generation.
Forget about programming software for NASA, forget about changing the
world and making it a better place via internet technology
advancements forget about saving lives and helping people and also
living better than your parents did.... it is just not possible to do
in IT or Science unless you can live like Mother Teresa, and accept
poverty and hardship your entire life.
I have worked in this field, in America as a US Citizen for more than
twenty (20) years. I have sacrificed many things, and worked three
thousand man-hour years throughout this career. I believed it would
pay off. I would still believe this except for the simple numbers...
the vast number of PHD's in India, China, Russia and other countries
eager to come to America and work for $45,000 a year. I estimate that
more than seventy three million PHD's a year could come to America and
work for more than five times the best pay they can get at home
($9kx5=$45k), and that this immigration pattern could be sustained for
more than ten years. The best numbers I have indicate that there are
only twenty four million IT / Science jobs in America, and that the
average salary in these jobs is $62,000/yr.
China has a population of 4 billion or so. India has more than one
billion, and perhaps has 2 billion. The Russians have some of the best
schools, the largest facilities for higher education, on the
planet,... if not _the_ best.
I do not believe this would be the case in America today, were it not
for H1b's, for "globalization" and for the exporting of American jobs.
The pattern is identical to other industries that have suffered from
exporting of jobs. But the future of America does not depend on fabric
manufacturing careers in the Georgia foothills, and it does depend on
continued technological world leadership -- something we will lose to
the Russians, if not the Chinese.
I do believe the Slave Trade has returned to America, that H1b's and
other, illegal, immigrants (hispanics) are little better than slaves
or indentured servants, subject to the whims of their employers. I do
not believe these workers have any loyalty to America as a Country or
to the American Way of Life. Certainly their actions fail more than
one moral test... and certainly they would object if Americans came to
their country and worked for less than half the salary there, taking
jobs away from them. In fact, many come from countries that strictly
limit how many Americans can work in the country, and limit it to less
than one percent of the workforce in any given field. I do believe
that several thousand foreign nationals in America today, as H1b
workers or Students, hate America, and are here to study us, to learn
our ways and our technology so that they can use our systems and our
methods and our techniques to attack us, and that these people will
seek to destroy us, will fight us for the rest of their lives.
I do believe that America will find fewer and fewer talented American
Citizens, individuals willing to live and work like slaves, in the
Science or IT fields. The best and brightest will seek a **rewarding
career** in some other field. This is bad for America, bad for US
Companies, and bad for US Citizens, but I think we can thank Senator
McCain. This destruction of America's future is his Legacy.
The next time someone complains about the high cost of Health
Services, I think IT/Science workers should suggest we IMPORT foreign
doctors, and pay them 1/5th of what American doctors get paid. The
Israeli, German, Swiss, Hungarian, Japanese, Canadian and Australian
medical doctors are particularly excellent.
The next time someone complains about the high cost of Corporate
CEO's, I think IT/Science workers should suggest we IMPORT foreign
MBA's (the Chinese, Taiwan, Indian and Japanese MBAs are particularly
impressive individuals) and pay them 1/10th what American MBA's get
paid.
Etc. This is what "globalization" really is as it has been
implemented. I do not think this is what it has to be.... but
corporate greed is in control, and eventually Corporate FEAR will take
over. That will be a bad thing. Because what they have done makes the
conditions right for very very bad things to easily happen (global
synchronous economic downturns or World Wide Depression).
So, tell me, what happens when the Japanese Gov't wants to call it its
Three Trillion Dollar loan to the American Gov't in the form of US
Treasure Bonds? If you think this has nothing to do with foreign
workers in America, you have missed my point entirely. Globalization
implies that every negative national or international event is
subject to a multiplier at least as great as the multiplier for every
positive international event.
The true risks are unknown, and have *NOT* been appropriately
evaluated. And I fault Senator McCain for that.
Just as the true risks of genetically modified food crops has not been
studied thoroughly enough. We probably eat them every day, and do not
even know it.
Larry
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Subject: Re: Are We Really Exporting Jobs? Some Inconvenient Facts for Some
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PhilotsopherBroker wrote:
< bs deleted >
-----------------------------------------------------------
Are We Really Exporting Jobs?
In the Puget Sound area of Wa. and around Portland, Or. I personally know of
about 400 that have lost their jobs either to H1Bs or outsourcing to Russsia
or India. That is only the ones I know about. There is probably many more.
Considering that a high tech worker indirectly supports 8 to 10 others in their
community you can readily see the toll this will take. This is different from
an economic downturn because the jobs lost will never be recovered. The damage
is permanent.
At a recent gathering of honor students they were asked how many were planning
to go into engineering or computer science? ZERO! When asked, "Why not? You are
the best math and science students of your schools?" They replied we would just
waste a lot of time going to school only to have our jobs given to off shore
workers. We will try to go into business for ourselves."
You can see the writing on the wall. I know programmers that have been out of
work for a year. Not just run-of-the-mill programmers but some of the best I
have worked with. One friend has already lost his house. CEO's greed is
boundless. They are on each others boards and vote themselves huge compensation
packages. They complain about US workers making 3 times more than off-shore
workers while they make 1000 times or more than a foreign executives. Since the
1980s their compensation package has risen from more than 20 times the average
US worker to approaching 600 times.
When will it end. Not soon. I truly believe you will start to see a general
decay in society. I know many who are arming themselves for the days to come. I
only see a general social collapse. Unions will begin striking. You will start
see many incidents of violence.
I am one of the fortunate because I can retire soon and move to the hinterland.
But I feel sorry for the younger people. They really have nothing to look
forward to except the general degradation of life.
A life of despair awaits the masses.
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