Shawn
> I guess you missed the point I made at the end
> where I said it was *my* opinion.
I caught it and appreciate what you were saying Shawn. Never-the-less I
think it's fair for others to examine the value of that opinion. In other
words investigate the question like, for instance, a good journalist would.
> Let me put this another way. Every person in the 3000
> environment that I physically work with and
> associate with think that INTEREX has been irrelevant
> for years. Now that isn't my opinion, that is
> my empirical evidence from talking to them. I don't know
> anyone that has gone to HP World in years that wasn't a
> vendor.
My analysis from that are two:
1. Shawn Gordon personal contacts aren't representative of the HP 3000
community as a whole. After all, *somebody* is still going to HP World to
make it one of the most successful conferences of its type in the country.
Further IMO a lot of the folks at conferences always have been weighted
towards vendors, consultants, and the like.
2) The belief that something is irrelevant is not the same thing as actual
irrelevance. And there are a number of reasonable explanations for a
'belief gap' including poor marketing on INTEREX's part (I know that
happens), rational ignorance, just plain ignorance and/or misinformation,
and the psychology of 'free riding'.
Free riders is a term used by economists to describe those who get a
benefit but don't pay for it. Its hard for a free rider to admit that
they are 'cheap skaters' on the voluntary efforts of others so the tendency
is to stay ignorant and be in denial about the benefits the free riders are
enjoying.
These considerations don't prove anything but they do raise reasonable
doubts and questions.
>> Remember what my CFO always tells me, opinions
>> are like assholes - everyones got one.
In many companies the backsides of key corporate officers are insured.
From that I take the lesson that some asses -- and opinions -- are worth
more than others. The remaining question is ... which ones? <g>
Cortlandt Wilson
(650) 966-8555
-----Original Message-----
From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On
Behalf Of Shawn Gordon
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 6:12 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] Using HP e3000 for the NEXT 25 years.
I guess you missed the point I made at the end where I said it was *my*
opinion. Let me put this another way. Every person in the 3000
environment that I physically work with and associate with think that
Interex has been irrelevant for years. Now that isn't my opinion, that is
my empirical evidence from talking to them. I don't know anyone that has
gone to HP World in years that wasn't a vendor. There isn't an HP shop in
town where it is even on the radar or considered a good use of money. And
you guys keep making my point, it isn't just about the 3000, so most 3000
people find it a waste.
Is that clearer for you?
At 10:46 PM 11/26/2001, Greg Cagle wrote:
>And the real point here is that Interex is irrelevant to YOU. It is a gross
>overgeneralization to state the Interex is irrelevant to EVERYBODY. As
>Denys correctly states in another posting, it's not just about the 3000.
>
>--
>Greg Cagle
>gregc at gregcagle dot com
>
>"Shawn Gordon" <[log in to unmask]> wrote in message
>news:9tv8j40ios@enews3.newsguy.com...
> > Wirt has made a great case against Interex many times in the past and
their
> > costs that it's not appropriate for me to try and reproduce it. From my
> > own perspective of having worked with Interex as an author and
contributor
> > for years, I can speak from that perspective. when I started writing
for
> > Interact it was about 140 pages a month, filled with useful
information -
> > the magazine doesn't even exist now, and the weak publication that is
> > published is pretty much worthless. The shows use to be about the HP
3000,
> > now the 3000 is a footnote at the shows it seems. Interex hasn't been
much
> > of an advocate for the 3000 in some time. I remember serious talk a few
> > years ago about forming an alternative that was focused on the
> > community. In this same time I saw the quality and quantity in the 3000
> > News Wire explode (and not just because of my own contributions) - this
> > proved there was a market for it, but Interex was too disinterested to
> > pursue it.
> >
> > I had intense battles with the editorial staff towards the end, which
> > resulted in at least one person getting fired over there. I think
Interex
> > is irrelevant, has been for years, and will be more so in the near
> > future. There are lots of volunteers who have done good things using
the
> > Interex banner, but Interex as an organization (IMO) is a lost
> > cause. Remember what my CFO always tells me, opinions are like
assholes -
> > everyones got one.
> >
> > At 04:02 PM 11/26/2001, Cortlandt Wilson wrote:
> > >Shawn,
> > >
> > > > [Interex] been marginal over the last 5 years at
> > > > best, and I certainly don't see any reason to renew
> > > > let alone join if you aren't a member.
> > > > What is the logic?
> > >
> > >While I agree that Denys (and others) need to make a more explicit
> case for
> > >membership the same reasoning works both ways. I suggest it's up to
the
> > >critics such as yourself to explain how Interex been "marginal" in the
> last
> > >5 years. So for instance, what specific actions would make Interex
> > >non-marginal?
> > >
> > >You see I'm betting that if one listed the reasonable actions and
impacts
> > >one expected from Interex in the last few years we would find that
Interex
> > >was active in many of them.
> > >
> > >Cortlandt Wilson
> > >(650) 966-8555
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On
> > >Behalf Of Shawn Gordon
> > >Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 2:45 PM
> > >To: [log in to unmask]
> > >Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] Using HP e3000 for the NEXT 25 years.
> > >
> > >
> > >On Monday 26 November 2001 02:33 pm, Denys Beauchemin wrote:
> > > > An excellent question Mr. Clark. Interex certainly can AND will
play a
> > > > part in whatever future is created for MPE. Already the Interex
> web site
> > > > has some announcements about this issue and there will be more
> > > > announcements forthcoming, trust me on this (next week or week
after.)
> > > >
> > > > In the meantime, let me once again urge every Interex member to
renew
> > >their
> > > > membership when it comes due and for those of you who are not
> members, if
> > > > there ever was a time to join Interex, it is now
> > > >
> > >Certainly not intending to downplay your significant contributions to
that
> > >organization over time, but they've been marginal over the last 5 years
at
> > >best, and I certainly don't see any reason to renew let alone join if
you
> > >aren't a member. What is the logic?
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Kind regards,
> > > >
> > > > Denys. . .
> > > >
> > > > Denys Beauchemin
> > > > HICOMP
> > > > (800) 323-8863 (281) 288-7438 Fax: (281) 288-7438
> > > > denys at hicomp.com www.hicomp.com
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On
> Behalf
> > > > Of Clark, Rick
> > > > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 3:41 PM
> > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > Subject: Re: Using HP e3000 for the NEXT 25 years.
> > > >
> > > > I'll admit I have not fully followed this conversation and I
> apologize if
> > > > this has already been noted, but going through some of my old
> bookmarks I
> > > > stumbled across an Interex article discussing MPE "Shared Source".
> > > > http://www.interex.org/tech/3000/hp30003.html
> > > >
> > > > This tells me that at one time there was discussion on the merits
> of 'Open
> > > > source' for MPE and Interex would provide the host for these shared
> > > > programs. The initial source codes available were to be Query,
> Editor and
> > > > Java Class libraries.
> > > >
> > > > Is this now a dead issue with the announcement of the death of the
> hp3000?
> > > > Can Interrex help in the future of Open MPE?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Rick Clark
> > > > Systems Manager
> > > > Weltman, Weinberg & Reis
> > > > Cleveland, Ohio
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > **Confidentiality Notice**
> > > >
> > > > This e-mail and the documents accompanying this transmission contain
> > > > confidential information belonging to the sender which is legally
> > > > privileged. The information is intended only for the use of the
> > >individuals
> > > > or entities named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you
are
> > > > hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or the
> > >taking
> > > > of any action in reliance on the contents of this e-mailed
> information is
> > > > strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
please
> > > > immediately notify the sender by e-mail at the address above. The
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> > > > to be destroyed. Thank you for your compliance.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Shahan, Ray [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 2:53 PM
> > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] Using HP e3000 for the NEXT 25 years.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > What about an MPE shell for UNIX or LINUX?
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Cortlandt Wilson [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> > > > > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 12:52 PM
> > > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > > Subject: Re: Using HP e3000 for the NEXT 25 years.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ken,
> > > > >
> > > > > RE: continue to run HP e3000s *after* HP's
> > > > > announced "end of (HP) support" date at end of 2006
> > > > >
> > > > > The 3rd party vendors are there. They are needed. What in my
> mind is
> > > > > missing is the fate of MPE/iX itself.
> > > > >
> > > > > I appreciate that CSY
> > > > > 1) wants to do what is right for the user community as a whole
> > > > > (about which open source is but one possible solution)
> > > > > 2) wants to only promise or indicate what CSY can and will deliver
> > > > > Never the less I would like to hear from CSY a statement that CSY
is
> > > > > committed to/intending to/currently planning on finding a new
> home for
> > > > > the MPE/iX source code. In my thinking there is a big difference
> > > > > between "looking at" options and saying that one is committed to
> finding
> > > > > a solution.
> > > > >
> > > > > I suggest that finding out more about CSY's thinking on this is a
> > > > > important
> > > > > advocacy issue for the MPE Forum and Interex SIG Leaders.
> > > >
> > > > * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
> > > > * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *
> > > >
> > > > * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
> > > > * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *
> > > >
> > > > * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
> > > > * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *
> > >
> > >* To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
> > >* etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *
> > >
> > >* To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
> > >* etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Shawn Gordon
> > President
> > theKompany.com
> > www.thekompany.com
> > 949-713-3276
> >
> > * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
> > * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *
> >
>
>* To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
>* etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *
Regards,
Shawn Gordon
President
theKompany.com
www.thekompany.com
949-713-3276
* To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
* etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *
* To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
* etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *
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