On 22 Apr 2001, at 1:18, Reef Fish wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Apr 2001 22:04:14 -0500, Mike <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> >> >Expound on this a bit please. Of course I guess it would depend on
> >> >the nature of the incident but how are you prepared to give or
> >> >receive help in a single file swimthrough?
> >>
> >> Mike, I think you misunderstood "single file swimming" to mean
> >> you what you cavers understand to be "single file swim-through".
>
> I guess I did not make my point sufficiently explicit.  I mean
> "single file SWIMMING" does not imply "single file swim through",
> nor does it imply a swim through that REQUIRED single-file swimming.

You made it sufficiently explicit on your response to my query for
clarification.

Below was my definition of restrictions for clarification on my
thinking on the subject.


> >
> >We would call those major restrictions. Any restriction which
> >requires you to negotiate it single file would be one. This is what I
> >was thinking about when I asked for clarification.
>
> My point was, "single file swimming" in OPEN WATER swim throughs
> are not the caver's "major restrictions" or even "minor restrictions",
> but divers are recommended to swim single file so that they would
> not be following anyone BUT the DM leading in front, if there is
> always only ONE PERSON ahead of him, even though there's ROOM
> for 10 to swim abreast.  In the latter case, one of the 10 may
> see some opening and thought that was where the DM headed ...
> and gets lost.  That's generally the reason for swimming single
> file in a swim through, NOT because it is a "major restriction"
> or any restriction that REQUIRES single file PHYSICALLY.

Understood that.



>
> >I am to assume
> >then that you don't as a general rule do swim throughs that require
> >you to be single file?
>
> That is correct.
>
> >> See my phrase "Of all the swim-throughs I've done ... NONE of
> >> them were the caver-type ..."?
> >
> >Saw that, just wanted clarification on what you considered caver
> >type.
>
> Your "major restriction" or "single file required".
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Take the "Devil's Throat ... please" as Henny Youngman would say. :-)
> >>
> >> The passagers are ALWAYS done single file -- and many of those
> >> passagers are BIG enough for trucks to drive through.  Some are
> >> big enough for several trucks to drive through, side by side --
> >> e.g., the "Cathedral".
>
> I re-elaborated this point at the beginning.
> >
> >Understand. I still see much room for significant problems to happen
> >in these areas but I also see why folks don't think twice about
> >entering them.
>
> How do you know what some folks think or don't think?  :-)

Physic?  :-)


> Significant problems CAN happen.  And when they DID, they had
> always been successfully coped with, unlike in cave-diving.  While
> there are numerous cave diving fatalities EVERY year, I am not
> aware of a SINGLE case of a swim-through fatality in Cozumel, ever
> -- and that's saying a lot, given the frequency and the low
> competence levels of many OW divers there.

Just because you are not aware of them does not mean that they
haven't happened. I agree that there are many thousands of them
done every year without incident. I also agree that there are a
significant number of cave diving deaths each year out of many
thousands  of cave dives done.


>
> The Devils's Throat in Coz is about as long and partially restricted
> a swiw through as any.  Yet hundreds and thousands of divers, many
> of them INCOMPETENT to dive them but did, yet none has ever resulted
> in a fatality or even serious injury.  Why?  Because they are NOT
> "major restrictions" and divers in front or behind are always
> available for help if the diver can't help himself.

Ok.


>
> The recent incident of a rusted steel tank of Aldora causing a
> diver to be OOA during a Devil's Throat dive in a swim through,
> and yet suffered no injury because of available help from others,
> is one reason why there has NOT been any fatality or even major
> injuries in any of the swim throughs there.

I'll stipulate that there have not been any deaths in this particular
area.


>
> ( snip )
>
> >> >> If one is NOT comfortable with such a passage, to the extent that one
> >> >> feels confident no matter what happens, one can extricate oneself
> >> >> from the swim-through and head for the surface, then one should NOT
> >> >> go into the swim-through.  Simple.
> >> >
> >> >Yep, assuming one is wise enough to know one's limits. :-)
> >>
> >> I HAVE to use that as a premise.
>
> Otherwise, there is no end to how you can take care of the incompetent
> or irresponsible divers.

Agreed.


> >
> >I've heard you use the term many many times. I also believe that it's
> >a good rule. I also know that most new divers wouldn't understand it
> >nor know how to apply at this stage of their diving careers.
>
> IMO, one of the MAIN reasons is that most instructors DO NOT stress
> the self-reliance and self-responsibility aspects of diving!

Agreed.


>
> They
> >enter the sport following the words and actions of the instructors and
> >DM's and more experienced divers that they learn from.
>
> But if the instructors do NOT preach self-responsibility, then the
> divers are unlikely to learn how to learn his own limits so that
> he can be responsible for himself.

I wouldn't agree that they are all unlikely to learn. If they survive long
enough and are smart enough then they may learn how to learn
their limits.


>
>
> >I preach to
> >entry level students that they are OPEN water divers when and if
> >they are certified and that ANY overhead environment is beyond
> >their training.
>
> I think that's a bit of an overkill.  Besides, you're TELLING them
> without giving sufficient REASONS, rather than telling them HOW
> to THINK for themselves.

How do you know what I tell them. Were you there?  I DON'T think
it's overkill and they are given reasons why I believe that it is not
safe for them. Whether they choose to think about what I teach
them or not is out of my control...


>
> The Big Tunnel in Grand Cayman is an excellent example.  It IS
> an overhead restriction.  But if that swim through is BEYOND
> the training of an OW-certified diver, then I'll say that diver
> should NOT have been OW certified!

Never been there so can't comment on it.


>
> An even more obvious case is Bonnie's Arch in Grand Cayman.
> If is a swim through with an overhead environment.  The overhead
> is shallower and shorter than the Big Tunnel.  Both are no more
> than 15 feet or so in the swim through portion, which is big
> enough for a large truck to drive through.

Ok.


>
> If I were your student, I would have used my OWN judgment and
> say Good Ole Mike's advice is not very sound for a certified
> OW diver for those overhead environments and swim throughs..

That is certainly your perogative as it is would be of any of my
students.


>
>
> >I have seen many of them within a few dives of being
> >certified swimming through the various thing's we have placed in our
> >quarry. They are, I guess trying to find their limits regardless of the
> >advice that I have given them concerning putting a hard ceiling over
> >their heads.
>
> While your advice may be a good one for your quarry, it certainly
> does not hold water in a great majority of the swim throughs in
> recreational diving throughout the Caribbean or the Pacific.  I
> cited the Big Tunnel and Bonnie's Arch in Grand Cayman because
> many divers on this list would know what I am talking about.
>
>
> >All of them that I have questioned about this after the
> >fact indicate that they could see the light at both ends of the object
> >and it was only a short distance anyway. I usually ask them at this
> >point to include me in their wills.......
>
> I think it would have been better for you to ask them to THINK
> for themselves and THINK through the possible dangers for themselves.
> Including you in their wills is NOT going to help them one bit
> in the lesson of being a responsible diver for THEMSELVES.

The discussions that I have had after the fact have always been
much longer than I cared to type in my post. I can assure you that a
good bit of thinking was done on their parts during this discussion
and talk was done about the hazards and dangers of overhead.
They may very well say that I am full of shit and do what they want
anyway but they may just might think about it before doing it the next
time. The jab about the will is just a simple way to drive home a point
that this sport can kill you in a lot of ways, quicker if you don't think
about what you are doing.


> >
> >> I am sorry to say I cannot let my own thinking about dive safety
> >> dictated by what some fools do.  I leave that to Darwin.
> >
> >Understand.
>
> That's really my bottom line.  I can't protect fools and I don't
> intend to protect fools who can't take responsibilities for
> themselves, when they CAN, and SHOULD.
>
> -- Bob.