On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 23:10:51 -0400, Michael Doelle
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Bob wrote:
>
>>So, you think there's no issue of UNSAFE practice for a DM to stay
>on the boat and tell divers (mostly beginners) to pop up to the
>surface every 15 minutes in a 60-minute dive at 25-30 fsw.<<
>
>Yes and yes.

Wrong and wrong, for the reasons you gave.  NOW at least we have
something of SCUBA substance to talk about.  ;-)

>
>The "beginners" NEVER do 60 minute dives, no matter how shallow.

Clearly wrong.  Refresh your SAC rate and how it translates to
length of dives at various depths.  Not many people (beginner
or not) do 60 minute dives only because not many dive operations
conduct 60 minute dives.


>The "others" generally don't follow the DM's advice to "pop up",
>or at least have the sense to do it slowly enough.

Being able to ascend slowly enough is NOT a matter of "sense", but
a matter of "skill".  You grossly overestimated the diving skills
of recreational divers.

>
>For the beginners the slight DCS risk is preferable to being swept off to
>Bermuda (there IS current in the Keys, although much less than up here in
>Delray, and divers frequently end up either on other boats or way out at
>sea).

You seem to forget we were talking about Molasses Reef.  What current?

How many cases do you KNOW of beginners (or non-beginners for that
matter) swept off by currents in the Florida Keys and LOST, as
oppose to the number of cases of DCS and embolism?

>A DM in the water would most likely further reduce the risk for these
>poorly qualified divers. But that's a training issue. They all carry cards
>that say they are qualified. And I don't do dive training threads.

This is not meant to be a dive training thread nor is it one.  I was
talking about UNSAFE practice, caused by SOME Molasses Reef DMs, in
the REAL WORLD, as opposed to armchair theorizing.
>
>Bob, we both know what we (you and me) think about DMs in the water, and so
>do the listies that have followed these exchanges over the years.

No, we don't, and you don't know what I think.

First, I DON'T stereotype anyone.  I have the utmost respect for SOME
DMs, for their skills and professionalism in their jobs.  I have the
utmost disdain on SOME DMs, as those I encountered in the Florida
Keys.

>I will always tend to avoid boats that do "DM-lead-group-dives", while you
>seem to like dives with a DM (in certain locations at least.)

It's not a matter of "like dives with a DM" or not.  Florida Keys
are the ONLY locations I've dived where DMs don't get wet.  In
unfamiliar locations/sites, a DM led dive ranges from a "must" to
a "desirable to show where things are".

>I prefer to bring my own dive partners, since I know evreything about
>their gear and qualification, while I usually know nothing about the
>DM on a dive boat.

But in new sites, it could still be the blind leading the blind,
in YOUR case.  See the hypothetical case involving Strike below.

I dive with the same buddy (my wife) in more dives than most divers
have dives in their entire life, including possibly you.  That in
no way diminishes my appreciation of DMs and GOOD DMs when the
sites/conditions call for them.  DM is a misnomer for "Dive Guides".

>We will never agree on this subject.

That I agree.

>But I don't mind discussing it from time to time.

So we have.  IMNSHO, if you always prefer to dive WITHOUT a dive
guide, then you're missing a hell of a lot in your dives.

Try this for mental exercise:  You're diving in Shelly Beach
with your favorite buddy.  Strike happens to be working as a
DM (Dive Guide) for Tricky that day. :-) He has been guiding
other divers for years and know practically where everything
and every critter is.

Do you prefer to fumble along with your favorite buddy WITHOUT
Strike as your Guide?

-- Bob.