On Mon, 19 Mar 2001 22:06:58 -0100, Kuty <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>At 23:00 18/03/01 -0500, Feesh wrote:
>
>>I am curious as to WHY the instructor was suspended.  Was
>>there some untold circumstances that warranted that?
>
>Yes there were.  I am not really familiar with the details because we only
>got the short version (in this case).

But the short version amply illustrated the three points I made
about the most common causes of dive accidents -- 1. incompetent
diver.  2. False sense of security about diving shallow.  3. Lack
of self-reliance/self-responsibility.


This was Case 2:

>>But Joe was ALREADY CERTIFIED.   The refresher course was
>>taken at his own initiative
>
>As I wrote in my reply to Strike, it is not so in Israel.  Joe had to take
>this refresher according to the law in Israel, and the instructor should
>not have signed his book.  You are right of course in case of most of the
>countries in the world which don't have diving LAWS.

That's an important detail omitted in your story.  :-)   Both Strike
and I gave Joe the credit for VOLUNTARILY seeking a refresher course.
I even said "apparently the ONLY sensible thing Joe did in your story".

>In Israel, he can't revoke it but he can say that he is not ready to sign
>the refresher.  Then the diver can't dive according to Israeli law, until
>he improves his skills (with an instructor) or find another instructor who
>will sign his book.  Unfortunately, there are enough instructors in our
>business who will sign almost anything.

That's precisely the problem with such "laws", like the former USA
national speed law of 55 mph.  I don't know of any person who has not
broken that law, on Interstate highways.  ;-)

> It might change after this incident.

I doubt it.  No more so than US agencies/instructors keep "signing
off" new divers who are nearly as incompetent as Joe, after numerous
fatalities that can be attributed to "not qualified but certified".


>>I have the deepest sympathy for the FAMILY of the diseased,
>>but not much for Joe himself.  It was a classic case of an
>>accident waiting to happen, and it simply did.
>
>I agree with you but I still FEEL sorry for him.  Feelings are not very
>rational :-)

Who can argue with personal FEELING, admittedly "not very rational". :-)

>
>>I think you placed much of the blame Joe should bear himself
>>on the instructor who just happened to be the dive guide.
>
>First of all, I think that Joe bears most of the blame.

That was really my MAIN point, about self-responsibility.  I am
surprised to hear you say that now because that didn't come through
in your original post at all.

>I argued that
>fiercely, on the Israeli diving forum, because here people tend to put all
>the blame on the instructors.

Good for you!

>Nevertheless, in our case (Israel) the first
>instructor could have prevented it with the aid of the law, and the second
>one should have listened to Joe and not convince him to dive.  At least, he
>should have dived as his tight buddy.

True.  But if ALL instructors stress SELF-RESPONSIBILITY in the first
place, then we PROBABLY wouldn't have had this tragic incident (about
Joe) and all the finger-pointing everywhere AROUND Joe.

-- Bob.