On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:34:07 -0500, Timothy Doty <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

>>>At our shop we charge a set price to get your OW cert.  If it takes you 3
>>>class to master all the skills there is no extra cost.  Same for the
>dives.
>>>If we need to take you out 8 times instead of 4 so be it.  Few do it this
>>>way.
>
>>That statement is tentamount to saying that no student ever fails a
>>course!  The PRACTICAL truth is that if a set price is charged to
>>get an OW cert, come hell or high water, then sooner or later an
>>instructor is going to compromise the integrity of a training program
>>by passing a student who should have flunked.  The next time around,
>>the course gets easier, and easier, and easier ...
>
>You make some pretty serious assumtions with out thinking things through!

I made no (erroneous) assumption about what you wrote at all!

>You sign up for a class but struggle through all the pool sessions.  The
>last pool session an instructor pulls you aside and explains you need a
>little more practice.  Would you quit?

That's beside the point.  My point is that in a college course, the
students WHO FAIL often struggle HARDER than any student you've ever
seen in SCUBA (after all the former is what their livelihood may
depend, whereas the latter is only recreation!).  When the EXAM time
comes, the student either PASSES or FAILS.

That's the point you missed.


If they need to practice (the acdemic skills) more, they would PAY the
tuition AGAIN, and RE-ENROLL, and they would again PASS or FAIL when
that course is over (for the 2nd time).


>Most people would, and do.  After
>the second round of pool sessions the same thing happens.  At that point
>EVERYONE drops out.  The shop doesn't give up on the customer, they give
>up on themselves.

The professor who FLUNKS students does not give up on anybody.  It's up
to the STUDENT to come back and SHOW (under the same training environment)
that they DESERVE to pass -- the 2nd time around;  if not, the 3rd time
around.

>
>>Why do you think no college charges a set price for passing a course?
>>I have had students who flunked the same course a few times and
>>some never pass the course.  That's the way it should be, but
>>rarely occur in practice.  The competence levels of college students
>>are going steadily down hill ever since I started in that business
>>of trying to "educate" some tree stumps.  But at least most of the
>>colleges have a semblance of integrity by actually flunking students
>>when they clearly don't meet the standard.
>
>Not everyone gets Olympic Medals either,

FUC 6.2!!.  Passing a college course is like getting an Olympic Medal?

Yeah, I remember someone once dared to propose that a HIGH SCHOOL
Graduate in the State of NY (your state) should be required to pass
an EIGHTH GRADE exam in English!

That proposal ITSELF was ridiculous enough!   Why not pass a 12th
Grade Exam in English?

But the UTMOST ridiculous OUTCOME was that there are people like you
who equate passing an 8th grade exam in English as winning an Olympic
Medal, and they OBJECTED to the fact that a High School Graduate
should be subjected to such "ridiculous high standards".

That unfortunately is the prevailing mentality in the USA!  That's why
not many high school grads and college grads can write English worth
an 8th-grader's English;  that's why their MATH and SCIENCE skills
rank far below even those in some third-world countries.

Mike, don't get me started on THIS SUBJECT about Education, standards,
and PASS/FAIL!  You're just sticking you head in the sand if you think
no one should flunk a SCUBA class.


>oh yeah thats because like college
>they are competative arenas.  Last time I checked SCUBA OW was not.  I
>don't remeber trying out for SCUBA class.

Non sequitur and irrelevant.

>
>As an interesting side note, our shop does teach a class at the local
>university.  Less than 1/2 ever get certified and they are on average the
>WORSE students.

"On average"?   :-)   If half of them FLUNKED, I would say that might
affect you "average" a bit.

BUT the ones who PASS are probably far better skilled and competent,
though they are based on the same "standards" set up by the certifying
agencies.  The college kid who FLUNK already had a better preparation
for the "theory" part of a scuba course, compare to a random person
off the street who drops in your shop to learn to scuba -- the
college student "on average" have better math, science, physics, and
background in other areas whose knowledge is REQUIRED for certification.
The fact that many of the FLUNK speak FOR the quality of that
particular SCUBA class taught, rather than what you characterize
as "worse students" in your shop class.

I couldn't have made my point better.  Thanks for supplying the data.  :-)

-- Bob.