Oh Boy... here's a topic that's going to be a hot one, at
least now that I just jumped into the fray...

> >> I came across a disclaimer from Scubapro about online sales.

Many companies have disclaimers that are not enforceable.  AFAIK,
this is one.

> >> Basically they stated that they would not warranty any product
> >> sold online.  I also came across similar statements by Atomic.

Really?!  And, just HOW would they tell that a product is sold
"online"???  For example, I buy a regulator from XYZ scuba
shop in California.  How can SCUBAPRO tell if I bought it and had
it SHIPPED to me or if I was on vacation and bought it while I
was physically at the shop?  Answer - they *can't* tell the
difference.

And, what is the difference between "online" and "mail order".
Did they specifically say "online"?  Do they also include
"mail order" in the same bucket?  It would be VERY easy to
circumvent the "online" requirement by looking it up "online"
then calling to order it via "mail order" and no one could tell
whether you knew the place from visiting it, saw an ad in a magazine
or saw it online.

> >> I am sure other companies will follow suit.  I am interpreting
> >> this decision as backing up all of the scuba shops that have
> >> supported these manufacturers for so long, but the bottom
> >> line (IMHO) is that this really stinks.

And also fly against legal precedent from my understanding.
They can TRY to follow suit if they dare...  I'm going to
have to do some more investigation (when I have time - don't hold
your breathe) and try to find the case law so I can properly
cite it.  Maybe if there's a lawyer on the list here I can
save some time and they can point me in the right direction :^)

> > I understand your point of view, but I think the situation is a
> > little more complex than you allow for.
>
> VERY MUCH so.  I thought about replying hours ago, and noted that
> the practice is in fact commonplace, known as an Authorized
> Dealership for a product, but I have difficulty EXPLAINING the
> reasons for such a practice because it is quite COMPLEX!

The (scubapro) warranty is transferable too!!!  I remember this
very issue popping up from time to time several years ago in
rec.scuba.  There was a lawyer who was knowledgable in such
manners and who was personally involved in setting some of the
precedents and who would periodically post there.  He stated
that such "limits" on a warranty were entirely invalid.

But, regardless of the issue which I raised above, because
the Scubapro warranty is transferable you can buy your (new)
regs from *anyone* and be assured that the warranty is intact.

Scubapro also has a policy of taking a reg that may not have
been serviced over some period of time, doing a complete
overhaul (that you pay for) and bringing it back into compliance
with their warranty.

Think about this - how much does your annual maintenance cost?
How much does a reg cost?  How many years would it be before
you could simply buy a new reg?

> < snip >

> Scubapro also has a clause on its LIFETIME Warranty of its
> regulators that it MUST be serviced by an AUTHORIZED SERVICE
> TECHNICIAN (usually a dive shop personnel trained by Scubapro).
> If *I* open up the reg, say, then all warranty goes out the
> window!  Strike gave an excellent explanation of THAT concept of
> an "authorized service personnel":

AFAIK, this restriction is illegal.  From memory, there are some
landmark cases that made news years ago in the auto industry.
Automakers tried to *FORCE* consumers to use brand name only
components and require consumers to take their cars to "x" authorized
service centers.  This was struck down by the courts. It was found
that as long as components of comparable (I don't remember
the *exact* words used, it may have been "equal or greater")
quality were used and they met the manufacturer's reasonable specs
(i.e. the specs couldn't say "manufactured by xyz") and the work
was done properly that warranty work could be done *anywhere* by
*anyone* - yes, even the owner if they so choose and it would
NOT invalidate the original warranty on the product!!!

> > Without the support of suitably trained and qualified service
> > technicians common to most dive stores, manufacturers would be
> > obliged to employ far more equipment maintenance staff than is
> > currently the case.  Their costs would increase and undoubtedly
> > be reflected in the cost of product..

Wait a second.  Whether the dive shop employs the people or
they're employed at the manufacturer, there is an overhead
burden here that must be absorbed somewhere.  Transferring
that burden from one place to another should NOT change
the overall cost of the product to the end user.  It might
change the cost to the dive shop, but then the dive shop
wouldn't have the overhead of the maintenance staff so
they could operate on lower margins/etc... You see what
I'm getting at.  This won't happen for several reasons.
First, you get quicker turnaround by having support people
"on staff" at the dive shop - they can do "emergency" repairs
quickly in "real time" if necessary.  Second, you save the
shipping costs (which would be an additional cost borne by the
consumer).  Third, manufacturers don't want to be in the
business of doing this, it would defocus them somewhat.

> There's also the reason of "quality control" of the product which
> requires regular maintenance (regs, at least once a year) by a
> suitably trained technician (the shop personnel) because Scubapro
> STANDS BEHIND its LIFETIME Warranty!  For other products of

This also flies against what I read the legal precedent.  This
argument is specious at best and was tried by the auto
manufacturers.

> limited warranty, I have PERSONALLY known Scubapro and Ikelite
> voluntarily replaced their products with NEW ones, even YEARS
> after the warranty expired!  That's what makes the reputation of

That's impossible since Scubapro has a *lifetime* warranty.  Are
you saying that the "lifetime" of the product somehow expired? :^)
Ikelite is a different story.  I am not aware of their warranty
period of if they had any *required* maintenance schedule.  Perhaps
someone could fill in the blanks as respect to Ikelite here.  I
did check out their web site and I couldn't find any mention of
a "warranty period".

> some manufacturers, and I am glad to pay extra to fulfill THEIR
> requirements.

Whether they're legal or not - your choice.

> That's also why I wouldn't let any Tom, Dick, and Harry, or the
> Jones's who are NOT AUTHORIZED to service my HyperAqualand to
> service MY watch and IMMEDIATELY lose the FIVE YEAR Manufacturer
> Warranty, because Citizens REQUIRES that watch to be serviced by
> its "authorized service center" (there is only ONE PLACE in the USA
> for that watch) -- again, for quality control and WARRANTY reasons!

This is also illegal according to the above reasons.

> A consumer is FREE to choose his OPTION.  But a consumer should
> KNOW the consequence of his choice.  Yet another application of
> the FREE MARKET principle based on one's OWN cost-benefit analysis!

I absolutely agree, however, a consumer should also not be bullied
into choosing an unreasonably expensive option either.

> Brotha' Strike, I think you and I should hold regular preaching
> "revivals" of the scuba kind, don't you?  :-))

Let the mayhem begin!!!

Carl