> -----Original Message-----
> From: Reef Fish
> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 11:13 AM
>
> >Unfortunately for the divemaster, we humans do tend to hold
> >ourselves responsible for things in cases like these
> regardless
> >of whether or not we "should".
>
> On the contrary!  Perhaps that's the way people do in the
> Phillipines.  In the USA, people (many, most) tend to blame
> everyone ELSE but themselves!

(1) The incident I described happened in the USA;
(2) Perhaps some people try to shift blame to others as a defense
mechanism,
    to help cope with internal guilt;
(3) It is possible to both (a) believe the dead diver in question
was to blame,
    AND (b) still suffer emotional trauma including feelings of
guilt.

> >Once I helped resuscitate a young boy who had drowned.
>
> Weren't you the one who possessed the 1983 Webster's unabridged
> dictionary?  What did it say about "drown"?  My
> dictionary says,
> "To DIE underwater or other liquid ..."
>
> >The boy, who had apparently been under for almost 10
> minutes, lived.
>
> Did he or didn't he DIE?

I'll answer that when you give me your definition of life and
death.

The boy had no pulse and was not breathing; his lips were blue,
and his eyes were rolled back into his head.  That's what I was
thinking when I said "drowned". After we administered CPR, his
pulse returned and he resumed labored breathing on his own.  In
the helicopter on the way to the hospital, he needed to be
resuscitated several more times.  He suffered from a collapsed
lung.

In view of his subsequent full recovery, I would not say he was
ever brain-dead.

> In any event, this example
> has NONE of
> the essential ingredients in Kuty's example under
> discussion.  The
> boy wasn't certified for anything.  He was probably
> not old enough to
> comprehend or practice "self reliance" of "self
> responsibility",
> and what happened in the pool is just an ordinary accident that
> wasn't HIS fault, nor anyone else's for that matter.

Kuty wrote, "I also feel sorry for the instructor.  I think that
he will have to carry the blame for the rest of his life.", to
which you replied, "At the risk of sounding callous, I disagree
with you on your assessment/assignment of sympathy/guilt...No DM
or guide can be held responsible for a COMPLETELY INCOMPETENT
(but nevertheless certified) diver.  The dive-guide-instructor
did not do many things as well as he should have, in hindsight,
but I don't see anything blatently guilty on the part of the
instructor that 'he will have to carry the blame the rest of his
life'."

You are addressing the issue of responsibility for the fatality;
Kuty and I were addressing the (separate) issue of psychological
response to a Death.  There really is no logical conflict in (1)
blaming the diver for diving beyond his limits and (2)
sympathizing with those in proximity to him at the time for
feelings of guilt.  Those feelings of guilt could very well be,
as you pointed out, just feelings; they don't make the people who
experience them any more or less to blame.

> Your narrative seems to suggest (to ME) that you
> ladies and gents
> should find a shrink and have a GROUP THERAPY session
> <:-))> on your
> guilt-complex.

Now it sounds as though YOU are sympathizing with ME.   :)

> 20-20 hindsight and "Monday-night quarterback" (USA
> term) are NOT
> going to teach a victim (especially the DROWNED one) any lesson
> about self-reliance and self-responsibility he SHOULD
> have learned.
>
> My post-hoc comment/analysis of the tragedy is in the hopes of
> convincing those readers who are ALIVE to pay more attention to
> the OWN responsibility and RELY less, much less, on rules that
> may or may not be applicable to them, and especially
> NOT to rely
> on another DIVER for their own safety.

Consider that another effect this kind of discussion might have
is to make some people less likely to instruct or in any other
way assume a position of implied responsibility in diving.

Chris