Feeesh said:

RF>This entire discussion had the ridiculous start that Mika wanted to
argue that ICE is not extreme cold because he had misunderstood the
term "extreme cold water" diving to mean "extreme diving" forgetting
about the COLD WATER part completely.<

Look, I have neither the time nor the patience to go over the archives with
a fine brush. But this is *definitetely not* how the discussion started.
Somehow the subject of DUI suits came up and JimG mentioned the cave cut.
Since this pushes your DIR buttons, you then claimed that in temperatures
below what FLA cavers experience, a 'loose fit' was more desirable, because
this is required to fit in the extra undersuit material. This claim was/is
completely false.

You also claimed that those who *did* propose close fitting suits did not
have your experience in extreme cold water diving. Another strange claim.

RF>>Errrr ... you are not gonna heat up any 'ice water' if the suit leaked.
:-)) You climb out of that damned hole (no more than 100 ft away) right
away to keep from getting hypothermia! :-))

Exactly, when you get cold on an ice dive, you surface and get out. Doesn't
sound very 'extreme' when compared to situations where surfacing
immediately for any reason may not be an option or otherwise undesirable.
Btw, Thinsulate and similar materials still insulate quite well when wet.

JimG >> >Well, Bob, ice diving isn't the ONLY cold water diving that's
done. 
RF>>Righto, the most extreme Cold Water diving though. 

Again, this is false. We are discussing diving, where the actual 'duration'
of your dives may become a much greater factor than absolute measured
temperature. 15 minutes at 1C is hardly more extreme than 60 minutes at 4C.
Talking ONLY about absolute temperature makes little sense in the original
context of the discussion  - which was the insulation required for ice
diving. After all, plenty of people around the world jump into holes in the
ice in bathing suits every year. Act like they're enjoying it, too.

RF>In this RECREATIONAL forum, in which I don't know AS YET, ...<

YOU compared your superior experience to that of the cavers.  Where is the
recreational context in that claim?

RF> if anyone (besides myself) is a certified ICE DIVER, I merely pointed
out some
very fundamental difference between rec ice dive and ALL other rec diving.<

The fundamental difference in ice diving is that it is an overhead
environment. Low temperatures are nothing new to ANYONE  who dives in my
area.

RF>1.  Are you CERTIFIED, under any recreational diving agency, as an
    Ice Diver.  (Because if you're gonna show up in New Hampshire,
    and East Coast Diver -- 5 Star PADI shop and say you wanna do
    an ice dive with them, because you don't have the chain saw or
    whatever ice-diving equipment with you, then they're going to
    ask you to show your cert).

No, I'm not certified. I'm not even drysuit certified.  And if I show up at
a local hole in the ice, that some shop has cut, they will likely not let
me dive. Or charge me for supervising me, which is what the Austrians love
doing at their lakes. They'd rather sell a course, but they can't force you
to do that. 

RF>2.  If you ARE recreational ice-dive certified, then did the agency
    have the prococol of a TENDER, and a (very) limited LENGTH of the
    rope for tending?<

I KNOW that is what they teach. And almost none of their students has any
overhead training and therefore prone to panic, so they are safer on the
leash. 

There is also nothing wrong with doing ice dives other ways. At least for
those with some decent overhead training.

M