On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 15:39:50 -0500, Timothy Doty <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:


>>I made no (erroneous) assumption about what you wrote at all!
>
>"The next time around,the course gets easier, and easier, and easier ..."
>Not the case.

Neither of us can prove or disprove it.  All I know is that if a student
always passes by coming back over and over again, without paying
additional tuition or fee, there are not that many JOBs (the biblical
character) in the Real World who would have all the time to give
free lessons at sub-minimum-wage pay ...  I draw my conclusion, you
draw yours.


>>The professor who FLUNKS students does not give up on anybody.  It's up
>>to the STUDENT to come back and SHOW (under the same training environment)
>>that they DESERVE to pass -- the 2nd time around;  if not, the 3rd time
>>around.
>
>Any SCUBA students have to do the same thing, we just don't charge them
>again for the second go-round.  Maybe it's the instructor is a lousy
>teacher...

That's what those students who FLUNK a course in college ALWAYS say.  :-)

That's still another "American Way" -- never blame yourself for
anything -- always blame it on OTHERS.  That's what promotes the
litigous society in the extreme that even YOU didn't overlook it,
did you?


>>FUC 6.2!!.  Passing a college course is like getting an Olympic Medal?
>
>Exactly my point!

No, you missed it!   My first point was how RIDICULOUS your statement
was -- to equate passing a college course to getting an Olym. Medal.


>Take a SCUBA class is like getting a college degree?  Or
>even taking a college level class?

My SECOND point that you missed is:

If there are "standards" to be met, and you don't meet it, you should
PASS?   Don't be ridiculous.  Passing a SCUBA course is not required
of anyone.  Doing it PROPERLY may save the LIVES of those who deserve
to PASS, and kill those who pass without meeting the "standards".

Why should a student NOT FLUNK a scuba course?


>The SCUBA class we teach at the
>university is a gym class, no grade, just pass or fail. I certainly
>wouldn't compare it to biology, trig, physics, english, history....

You keep missing the point of "standards for PASSING" and deserved
FAILURE for the inability to meet the standards.

Give that matter a few weeks of THOUGHT before you hasten to come back
here with the kind of impertence of yours as reflected in the
preceding paragraph and elsewhere on what you wrote about PASSING
and FAILING.

I've given that subject and PRINCIPLE serious thought, and PRACTICE,
for well over 30 years.

>
>>Yeah, I remember someone once dared to propose that a HIGH SCHOOL
>>Graduate in the State of NY (your state) should be required to pass
>>an EIGHTH GRADE exam in English!
>
>I think they where just trying to make it closer to the south ; )
>
>>That proposal ITSELF was ridiculous enough!   Why not pass a 12th
>>Grade Exam in English?
>
>You'll get no argument on that(the above was in jest)

That last remark was entirely superflous, and ironically the only
point I've made (consistent with all my OTHER points) that you
grasped when you agreed that a 12th Grader should pass a 12th-grade
exam to graduate.

Then why are you arguing that just because a course is "scuba" that
the "standards for PASSSING" are no longer like "standards for PASSING"
a college coure, or any course, for that matter?

You either SET a standard, and abide it it, or you can MOUTH-DANCE
(hey, I haven't used that descriptive term for awhile) all you want,
and you won't make a case to support your wandering-pointless-point.

>
>>But the UTMOST ridiculous OUTCOME was that there are people like you
>>who equate passing an 8th grade exam in English as winning an Olympic
>>Medal,
>
>I wasn't aware I thought that.  Thanks for setting me straight on my own
>opinions.

That's completely EQUIVALENT.  Else, you're completely INCONSISTENT.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt of being CONSISTENT, because
you argue aimlessly elsewhere, saying it's okay to have standards
and stick to them one place and not so elsewhere.

>
>>Mike, don't get me started on THIS SUBJECT about Education, standards,
>>and PASS/FAIL!  You're just sticking you head in the sand if you think
>>no one should flunk a SCUBA class.

>I also never said I agreed with this policy, I don't own the shop.

You don't have to SAY it explicitly.  YOu've said it loud and clear
in your posts that you CONDONE such practices.

What has owning a shop got to do with it?   Have you ever heard of
the word "PRINCIPLE"?  Did someone point the gun at you to work at
that shop?

You can't speak from both sides of your mouth and expect that others
wouldn't recognize it.


>On the
>other hand I have never seen an instructor break standards in keeping with
>this shop policy.  For the most part I agree with you.  I think there are
>way too many divers out there who shouldn't be certified in the first
>place.

That's "seeing" it INDIRECTLY isn't it?   I see steam coming out of
BOTH sides of your mouth in that one paragraph, seriously contradicting
yourself.

Work on the contradictory LOGIC of this for awhile:

"never seen an instructor break standards ..."

"way too many divers out there who shouldn't be certified ..."



>>>As an interesting side note, our shop does teach a class at the local
>>>university.  Less than 1/2 ever get certified and they are on average the
>>>WORSE students.
>
>>"On average"?   :-)   If half of them FLUNKED, I would say that might
>>affect you "average" a bit.
>
>I wasn't clear.  Only about 40% of the university students choose to get
>certified, many of which wouldn't be taken out to open water in any case.
>Most take it simply as a gym class and have no intention of getting
>certified.  To pass the gym class they need to pass the written tests(many
>don't) and complete all the pool sessions.
>
>When I said on average the are the worse students I meant comparing the
>average  university class to a non university class.  I have seen more
>university students fail the final from a single class than all the
>non-university students put together.

That's saying something about the university Doing It Right!

You are seeing one thing and drawing the wrong conclusion in exactly
the opposite direction!  All your observation meant was that the
university is FLUNKING the SCUBA students as it SHOULD, while none
of the "non-university" shops are flunking THEIR students as THEY
SHOULD be FLUNKING them.  Urgo, your last three lines in the
preceding paragraph.

>
>>The college kid who FLUNK already had a better preparation
>>for the "theory" part of a scuba course, compare to a random person
>>off the street who drops in your shop to learn to scuba
>
>Yet they still fail the exams MUCH more frequently.

Because they don't get to take it over and over again (and seeing
the same questions) until they get it right!  Wake up and wise up!!!


>Don't get me wrong we have some EXCELLENT divers come out of the university
>program.

Of course there are.  So are there in the regular scuba shops -- those
who PASS (deservedly) and PASS with distinction.

You're a very confused person, in the basis of LOGIC.  It showed, all
too well, in the pseudo-logical and illogical arguments you've
presented in a few mere posts.


>One student took the OW class with us as a freshman and the
>summer after graduation completed his instructor class before moving on to
>greener pastures.  We have another student from the university in our
>current divemaster class and another one signed up for a divemaster class
>in the fall.
>
>-Tim

Those anecdotal cases add NOTHING to the subject of PASSING vs FAILING
when standards are met or not met, respectively.

I have said more than I want to REPEAT on this subject.  I'll no longer
respond to YOUR follow-up on THIS TOPIC.  You can re-read what I had
already said.   It's all there.  :-)


Just to let you know, I treat each TOPIC and POST on its merit or
demerit, independently.  You FLUNK this one IMO (on the LOGIC and
coherency parts alone <G>), but you may (and I hope you will) PASS
with distinction and flying colors in other discussion TOPICS to come.

-- Bob.

P.S.  You've just been "clubbed" by da Feeesh.  Don't let that worry
you excessively.  Almost everyone you've seen posting here has been
clubbed by da Feeesh at one time or another.  Some of them are the
discussant I admire and respect the MOST on this or any other list.
They are also the ones who RARELY made posts that IMHO deserved to
be clubbed.   There are also a rare few who never learned and keeps
sticking their heads out, asking to be clubbed some more.   :-)

I have every hope that you are one of the former and not the latter.

NOW you have seen the REAL MEANING of a Free Forum, for FREE exchange
of ideas, and FREE and candid expression of what one REALLY belives
and feel, in a SELF-REGULATED LIST, without the need for any Scuba-cop
or the handcuff of any tyrant for censorship!

Hope you'll feel comfortable and enjoy being in such an environment.

-- Bob.