On Monday, April 23, 2001 8:40 AM, Lee Bell wrote:

(snip)
> I'm not sure what misunderstanding there is here.  I agreed with this.
You
> started by asking when a swimthrough became a cave and I answered but also
> included that the risk increased long before that.  I think you're saying
> the same thing.  Perhaps we're both getting hung up on the issue of cave,
> cavern and swimthrough when what we're both really speaking of is risk of
an
> overhead, no matter what name you put to it.

That may well be so!  My original response that introduced swim-throughs was
based on the fact that you specifically mentioned caves in your shouted
warning rather than overhead environments in their entirety! :-)

(snip)

> > > Look under overhead environment and I think you'll find what you're
> > > looking for.  I would be very surprised if you can honestly say you
have
> taught a
> > > single open water student in recent years that was not told, somewhere
> > > during the course, that they should not venture into an overhead
> > > environment
> > > without increased knowledge, skills, equipment and/or training.  I
don't
> > > have to guess what you're agency's position because I've heard it
first
> > > hand in my own and/or in my wife's training.

> > I wasn't aware that you were so familiar with Instructor training
> standards.

> I'm not sure what level I would assign to myself, but I am an SSI Master
> diver, which as you know, means I've been exposed to several SSI courses.
> You also know, or could know that I have NAUI and TDI certifications as
well
> and that I sat through my wife's PADI entry level course because I could.
> What you probably don't know is that I am very good friends and frequent
> dive buddy of a U.S. SSI instructor whose entry level courses I've sat
> through and a PADI instructor/head of a local police dive team.  Since you
> previously stated that you never exited Rec.Scuba, then you had the chance
> to read a good many agency standard discussions there.  I do not hold
myself
> out as an expert in any of the agency standards, but I'm not exactly
> ignorant of the either.

Just to set your mind at ease.  I read Rec.Scuba and UK.Rec. Scuba
selectively and very much as a lurker.  I am/was, however, an SSI Instructor
Certifier (as well as holding Instructor tickets with three other agencies),
and was unfamiliar with your statement that a DM taking a certified diver
through a swim-through was a breach of standards.

> > None of the agencies that I'm familiar with condone diving in an
> environment
> > that prohibits direct vertical access to the surface during open water
> > training.  "This requirement does not apply to ice, cavern, or wreck
> diving
> > specialty courses, * or to special orientation dives after a diver has
> been
> > certified"*  (Asterisks are mine!)

> Since I specified open water and/or entry level, I think this means we
> agree.

The standards that I quoted specified 'open water training dives' as opposed
to dives carried out by people who are already certified! There is no
stipulation in the SSI Standards, (or PADI Standards that I can see), that
people should not or must not enter swim-throughs after receiving their
open-water certification!  It was your comment that it was a breach of
standards that prompted my disagreement.

> > As a matter of course, however, a responsible instructor should stress
the
> > need for appropriate and specialised training in any new environment.

> You will never hear me intentionally disagree with this statement.  I
could
> not imagine that you would respond otherwise.  It's your nature to care
and
> to do the best you can at what you do.

> > I've deleted the rest as it's lengthy and you appear - to me - to be
> > stressing the point that nobody should enter any overhead environment
> unless
> > they are qualified to do so, even the shortest of swim-throughs; and
that
> > only the individual concerned can decide whether they are 'qualified' to
> do
> > so or not?

> You have read me correctly.

> > Although this is - or should be - common sense, it's something that goes
> > by-the-by as far as swim-throughs are concerned.  And no amount of "Thou
> > shalt not ...", will prevent it happening

> I agree with you.  Now I really am confused.  I have been saying the same
> thing from the beginning of this and related threads.  I started with
those
> that are not qualifed should stay out of caves and later extended that to
> any overhead environment.  I have always been a proponent of self
> determination and resonsibility and against the concept of external "scuba
> cop" limits on responsible divers.  Your "patently absurd" comment
indicated
> to me that you disagreed.  Your comment that the individual was not
> competent to decide who gets to decide suggested the same thing.  Now I
find
> we seem to have been in agreement all along.

The point that I was attempting to make when I wrote:
"As you're the one to raise the issue - but now state that it's not your job
to decide when someone is qualified - let me ask the question.  Who IS
qualified to decide who's qualified?  The individual?  Hardly!  Just ask
divers on a boat whether they consider themselves experienced or not and see
what responses you get!"
was intended to point up the subjective nature of competency.

I am in total agreement with you about the principle of a person not
attempting any dive that they're not qualified to make!  Objectively,
however, it's a nonsense because people will ultimately decide for
themselves their level of competency.  Much like saying that a person who
only holds an open water certification card shouldn't dive below 18-metres!
That doesn't mean that it's not worth shouting about!  It is!  But it's not
going to change the perceptions that people have about their own level of
competency or experience!  :-)

 Strike