Brad,

Let me give you another prespective.

Back in November '93 I did the Cavern course under the auspices of the
Cave Divers Association of Australia (CDAA), partly because I thought it
might be fun but principally because a friend was doing it and I thought
I'd keep him company.

I was entirely wrong on the first part and entirely right, albeit for
other reasons such as the buddy system <BG>, on the second part. Brad,
that last is directed at some of the older (not necessarily in age
terms) members of this list and is in fact a comment against me.

This is the entry level course which, if you pass, allows you into a
semi overhead environment such that, simply put, you can always clearly
see the exit.

There were six of us trainees, all with sufficient experience that we
routinely dived twins (a requirement, NOT an option in Cave) in the open
ocean. There was a CDAA Instructor as well as a Penetration Level Cave
Diver (PLCD) looking after us. A PLCD, in cave diving terms, is
equivalent to a Dive Master in the open ocean although I'd trust an
unknown-to-me PLCD before an equally unknown-to-me DM any day of the
week and then some.

On the first day we simply did pool work and theory.

On the second we visited the first of the, uhhh, warm, clear (NOT)
pieces of water the instructor had singled out for our "enjoyment" and,
no, there wasn't a cave in sight. For the locals amongst us these were
Wattamolla Lagoon and Bent's Basin, one very nasty and brackish and the
other even nastier and fresh water. I don't know which was worse. Trust
me when I say that you wouldn't in a fit dive these as a fun dive.

Two of these trainees opted out after that second day. As I recall,
between the six of us none had less than 500 dives up, yet two opted
out. Incidentally, I much respect them for taking the hard option of
opting out. No one likes to "fail". Actually they didn't in the least,
they simply recognized that this activity was perhaps not for them.

Is there a lesson there for you? :-)

Brad, just one of the training techniques was that the Instructor took
our masks (without warning, in near zero viz), wrapped us in line, and
expected us to get clear without losing buoyancy control. Notice that
buoyancy control bit - in those circumstances! How good's yours after
thirty or so dives?

We couldn't do it? We failed, simple as that. This one, amongst others
more difficult, was not put on "for the hell of it". This kind of sh*t
_happens_ in caves/caverns! Rather too often than one would like!

You have some thirty dives up? INCLUDING training dives I presume?
Certainly no cave training at all. No real idea of WHAT you may be
subjecting yourself to, apart from reassurances from others you consider
qualified to so judge?

What makes YOU qualified to accept such reassurances from these people?

With regard to the above I particularly like Lee's comment:

> Caves are very dangerous and full of risks not easily recognized by open
> water divers and not easily managed by any diver not specifically prepared
> for them.

DON'T DO IT!!!

WALK AWAY!!! You're a better man for it.

Incidentally my above friend, Robb Westerdyk, is now a PLCD and I just
WISH I was half as good at U/W Photography as he is, leave alone the
exquisite skills one develops at that level of diving. :-7

Brad then responded to a post of Kent's:

> Read the main text. Half way down the page Ginnie Springs says it is
> safe for non cave or cavern trained divers.

I didn't even bother to go to the site. I've never been to the States
but I KNOW that Ginnie Springs has had fatalities and I KNOW that it is
"safe" in a certain specific area, perhaps areas, of the site for
non-cave trained divers.

That's _exactly_ what Kent was referring to and I thought he said it
explicitly enough. Seems like you didn't understand that?

HOWEVER, if reading the sales material (as at the website), don't read
the lines, read _between_ them. Sorry, but you don't seem to be very
good at that.

Brad, it sems to me that every time someone makes an (inevitably valid)
point on this Forum you try to talk it away with something you've
read/something someone has told you.

You don't appear to understand that none of us has any axe to grind
since we don't know you from the proverbial bar of soap. So why should
we ALL, no exceptions, be so negative towards what you are proposing?

Surely you don't think we are in collusion?

Christian
--
Always and Never are two words you should always remember never to use.