On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:28:13 -0400, Michael Doelle
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Feeesh said:
>
>RF>This entire discussion had the ridiculous start that Mika wanted to
>argue that ICE is not extreme cold because he had misunderstood the
>term "extreme cold water" diving to mean "extreme diving" forgetting
>about the COLD WATER part completely.<

That's going to be my colllective reply to ALL posts that claimed my
ice diving cert and course gave me less experience than their LACK
of experience in ice diving OR any ice diving course.

As for Mika's mistaken notion that my "extreme cold water" diving
could possibly mean "extreme diving", it's lunacy!  I don't even do
deco dives;  no wreck;  no cave;  no nothing!  Why would I talk about
"extreme diving"???   If my "extreme cold water" diving could
possibly mean "extreme diving", I oculd make a case for saying that

 ice diving          is the MOST EXTREME safe diving!
                     Nobody could possibly get into trouble
                     if they follow the protocols of
                     recreational ice diving.

All of you IGNANT folks who knew nothing about any ice diving course
and haven't done ANY, and try to belittle me in talking about those
aspects (a tending ROPE;  a SHORT tending ROPE;  a dedicated TENDER
etc., etc.) that would make a water leak to a drysuit a "no brainer"

        can do your SOLO mouth dance on it!   :-)))))))))))))

You even had the proper quote of what I said below.  I explained
that quote relative to ice diving too!


Now back to you Mika.


>Look, I have neither the time nor the patience to go over the archives
with
>a fine brush.

Use a rough broad brush then.  You're completely mistaken about the
COLD WATER part relative to MY comments about "extreme cold water"
diving being ICE DIVING!


My entire argument about 'loose fit' is that it's a PERSONAL PREFERENCE.

>>RF>>Errrr ... you are not gonna heat up any 'ice water' if the suit
leaked.
>:-)) You climb out of that damned hole (no more than 100 ft away) right
>away to keep from getting hypothermia! :-))

That's where the relevance of the ice-diving course and the ice-diving
orientation are paramount!

    TENDER    ROPE    SHORT ROPE   DEDICATED TENDER to pull your
    ass out if you're in trouble.

You don't have any of that in wreck, cave, or other "extreme" dives,
cold, warm, or hot!


>JimG >> >Well, Bob, ice diving isn't the ONLY cold water diving that's
>done.
>RF>>Righto, the most extreme Cold Water diving though.

There!  The "extreme" qualifies the adjative "cold", not the noun "diving"!


>
>Again, this is false. We are discussing diving, where the
actual 'duration'
>of your dives may become a much greater factor than absolute measured
>temperature. 15 minutes at 1C is hardly more extreme than 60 minutes at
4C.

That's where you went off the wall again about "extreme diving".
WHether you dive at 1C for 15 min or 15 hours, the temperature is
the same 1C.  It's more extreme than 2C, less extreme than 0C, etc.

COmpredo??


>YOU compared your superior experience to that of the cavers.  Where is the
>recreational context in that claim?
>
>RF> if anyone (besides myself) is a certified ICE DIVER, I merely pointed
>out some
>very fundamental difference between rec ice dive and ALL other rec
diving.<

What you Mika and all others who blabbered are missing ARE:

The TENDER, ROPE, SHORT ROPE, etc.

Get it now?

>
>The fundamental difference in ice diving is that it is an overhead
>environment. Low temperatures are nothing new to ANYONE  who dives in my
>area.

That is NOT the fundamental difference.   See above, and see the
repeats of the words TENDER, ROPE, etc.   ;-)))

>
>RF>1.  Are you CERTIFIED, under any recreational diving agency, as an
>    Ice Diver.  (Because if you're gonna show up in New Hampshire,
>    and East Coast Diver -- 5 Star PADI shop and say you wanna do
>    an ice dive with them, because you don't have the chain saw or
>    whatever ice-diving equipment with you, then they're going to
>    ask you to show your cert).
>
>No, I'm not certified.

Your ignorance about ice-diving and any ice-diving course showed.


>
>RF>2.  If you ARE recreational ice-dive certified, then did the agency
>    have the prococol of a TENDER, and a (very) limited LENGTH of the
>    rope for tending?<
>
>I KNOW that is what they teach. And almost none of their students has any
>overhead training and therefore prone to panic, so they are safer on the
>leash.

And that's why ice diving is SO SAFE!  So un-extreme.  So EASY.
So "no brainer".   MaY be NOW you get the point that you can always
signal the TENDER who is tending the rope to PULL your ass in --
and that's unlike any kind of diving YOU or Mike Wallace had ever
done!  Nor JimG, nor any of those who belittle me about my ice=diving
training and it's relevance to that simple FACT about safety and
the relative lack of worry about a flooding drysuit.

>
>There is also nothing wrong with doing ice dives other ways. At least for
>those with some decent overhead training.
>
>M

Never got that far.  I was addressing clueless divers on ICE dives,
who are not even NEWBIES in ice-diving.

When the readership is QUALIFIED to discuss other methods of ice-diving,
given the necessary PREREQUISITE of a basic ice-diving course OR it's
corequisite knowledgte, THEN there is room for a sensible discussion.

Otherwise, it's just another Lee Bell bullshitting session, full of
rhetoric and worthless bullshit!

To parapgrase Bjorn:  This is ALL I have to say on THIS subject.

Y'ALL can have your last words.   :-)))))))))


ElPezNeuvo.