Denys, there's a lot in your message that I'd love to reply. My point is not to start YAOTT, but, rather, to make a few points that are dear to me, in, I hope, true respect of your own opinions. But that has to come a little later, work is calling me loud.
Good thing we are 7 time zones away, after all.
Christian Lheureux
Directeur BU Infrastructure / Manager of IT Infrastructure BU
________________________________
29, rue de Rosières
91240 SAINT-MICHEL-SUR-ORGE
FRANCE
Téléphone :
+33 1 69 72 12 83
Fax :
+33 1 60 15 30 62
Email :
[log in to unmask]
Web :
www.btwcomputing.com
________________________________
En mai 2004,APPIC RH devient BTW Computing, une activité du Groupe BTW
In May 2004, APPIC RH becomes BTW Computing, an activity of the BTW Group
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Denys Beauchemin [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Envoyé : mercredi 6 avril 2005 19:49
> À : Christian Lheureux; [log in to unmask]
> Objet : RE: [HP3000-L] OT: Off-topic, but not by much (Part I)
>
> Hello Christian, it's been a while.
>
> I find it a tad disingenuous of both you and Bill S. to even infer that I
> was trying to censor Wirt. I certainly do not remember either of you fine
> gentlemen jumping down Wirt's throat when he blasted some of my links
> simply
> because they were in the Washington Times. (If you did, especially Bill,
> please show me where in the archives; I can't find it.)
>
> Having put that one to rest, let's move on.
>
> I have no problems with Wirt saying whatever he wants; he (and you) can
> accuse whomever you want of censorship, even if it's not true, or
> certainly
> not one-sided. I would suggest to you that the left is far more inclined
> and experienced at censorship than the other way around; history is
> replete
> with examples of that (Soviet Union, National Socialist Germany, Communist
> China, Socialist Baathist Iraq...). (It's interesting that Wirt mentioned
> Scientific American, they are one publication that practices censorship on
> ideas opposed to or questioning their beliefs.)
>
> Like you, I deplore the fact science has fallen prey to political
> pressures,
> but that pressure has come from the left. Why else do you have farces
> like
> Kyoto, DDT, CFCs and asbestos bans, and other such things that impact our
> lives but have no scientific basis? If you repeat a lie long enough, some
> people begin to believe it. Science should not be based on majority
> opinion; it should be based on scientific fact. It should be demonstrable
> and repeatable and people should be allowed to question it, unmolested.
> If
> you have to threaten someone with loss of tenure, job or funding simply
> because they dare question "common knowledge" then we are no different
> from
> the folks who persecuted others for "heresy" or "thinking different" in
> the
> past.
>
> As you well know, I read a lot and I have little time for articles where I
> find two big mistakes right in the first paragraph and where these
> mistakes
> go at the very premise of the article, I simply put it down and move on to
> another one.
>
> In the US right now, there has definitely been a move either to the right,
> or perhaps a retreat from the direction in which it seems the rest of the
> world is marching, like docile, unquestioning lemmings. I attribute this
> "reassessment" to the greater availability of information, unfiltered by
> the
> "elite."
>
> It remains to be seen if the "elite" manage to stifle the freedom of the
> Internet. I certainly hope they do not succeed.
>
> And finally, I have to disagree with you, evolution has NOT been
> confirmed.
> It is the current thinking, but as Wirt observed some time back, even with
> all the bones that have recovered, not a single case has ever been
> documented to illustrate the evolution of one "ancestor" to a later form
> where there are major changes. There are also other problems with various
> facets of the current theory of evolution that are simply ignored, glossed
> over, or better yet, where the questioner is cowed into silence. I will
> be
> happy to describe some of them and if someone can reconcile these for me,
> that would be wonderful.
>
> Please be aware I do not subscribe to "creationism" or ID. But neither do
> I
> accept the totality of the current evolution mantra on faith alone :-) .
> I
> can question it without a hidden agenda and I chose to do so. I would
> really be interested in scientific PROOF. I actually think we do not
> currently know everything and there is more to discover, which is what
> science is all about.
>
> What if? Why? How? Those are eternal questions that should never be
> stifled.
>
> Denys
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
> Of Christian Lheureux
> Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 3:14 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] OT: Off-topic, but not by much (Part I)
>
> The French philosopher Voltaire once wrote that "I may disagree with you,
> but I'll struggle to make you express your viewpoint" (translated from
> French). In that respect, I applaud Wirt's postings and Denys' reaction,
> even if I certainly do not agree with one of these gentlemen. Bill Shanks
> also expressed his viewpoint, which I certainly subscribe to : read a
> piece
> of opinion, just in case you learn something from it.
>
> To put things in another perspective, it's not because one does not like a
> message that one should blast (or, worse, to physical force to annihilate)
> the messenger.
>
> Denys, you once wrote very correctly that "it's tremendous how far right
> this country has shifted". I assume you were referring to the United
> States
> of America. I agree with your comment. Were you applauding to such a move
> ?
> Perhaps - and I have no problem with that opinion of yours. But I
> certainly
> share Wirt's (and others') concern that, with the USA markedly shifting
> right, science is blurred with non-scientific opinion. Evolution has been
> confirmed and proved by plenty of hard fact. Creationism has been based on
> faith from Day 1.
>
> As for attacking the NYT mostly because it's the NYT, I raise the same
> objection : don't blast the messenger because you do not agree with the
> message.
>
> Now I have a concern, and I wish to share it. The late-30s Nazi Third
> Reich
> was perceived as a dictatorship when its minions began to burn books, for
> the sole reason that these books has been written by Jews. Is the string
> of
> attempts to blur the message of science with creationist opinion a similar
> action of putting politics ahead of education, mostly because professors
> are
> perceived as left-leaning and, as such, not in favor with the current
> administration ?
>
> OK, now flame suit on, I believe. You may call me what you want, but
> certainly not a leftist honcho - I supported Reagan's deployment of cruise
> missiles in Europe, I never supported the nationalization of businesses, I
> support most schemes that intend to put people out of welfare and back at
> work, etc. But I certainly do not support neglecting education in favour
> of
> politics. That was done before, including in my own country by a
> self-proclaimed elite of leftist professors in the 70s, and it has failed.
>
> Christian
>
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] De la
> part
> > de Denys Beauchemin
> > Envoyé : mercredi 6 avril 2005 04:15
> > À : [log in to unmask]
> > Objet : Re: [HP3000-L] OT: Off-topic, but not by much (Part I)
> >
> > Wirt, why do you insist on posting press articles which are incorrect?
> >
> > When Columbus sailed west from Europe, he was not trying to get to
> India,
> > he
> > was on his way to Cathay. That was the name the people of Columbus'
> times
> > had for China.
> >
> > Also, nobody was disputing the fact the Earth was round, what they were
> > arguing about was the fact Columbus would never make it to Cathay with
> his
> > ships, it was way too far. The detractors were right; if the (now
> named)
> > American continent had not been there, Columbus an his 3 crews would
> have
> > perished on their way to Cathay.
> >
> > I stopped reading the article right after the first couple sentences.
> > Would
> > you please refrain from posting such crap in the future?
> >
> > Denys
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf
> > Of Wirt Atmar
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 1:55 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: [HP3000-L] OT: Off-topic, but not by much (Part I)
> >
> > Tom Friedman was on NBC's Today Show this morning promoting his new
> book,
> > "A
> > Brief History of the 21st Century." He also wrote the following a few
> days
> > ago
> > in the NY Times. And he has a program on the Discovery Channel this
> coming
> > Thursday night on somewhat the same subject.
> >
> > People have discussed the "threat" that India and China represent to the
> > American way of Life, especially to IT departments, before on this list,
> > and
> > that
> > concern represents a good deal of the material to follow. But the bottom
> > line
> > that Friedman argues is that a failing education in America underlies
> much
> > of
> > the problem -- and is the ultimate source of much of the whining.
> >
> > Due to email space limitations, I can't put everything I would wish in
> > this
> > one email, so read this one first and then the one to follow.
> >
> > Wirt Atmar
> >
> > ======================================
> >
> > April 3, 2005
> > It's a Flat World, After All
> > By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
> >
> > In 1492 Christopher Columbus set sail for India, going west. He had the
> > Nina,
> > the Pinta and the Santa Maria. He never did find India, but he called
> the
> > people he met ''Indians'' and came home and reported to his king and
> > queen:
> > ''The world is round.'' I set off for India 512 years later. I knew just
> > which direction I was going. I went east. I had Lufthansa business
> class,
> > and I came home and reported only to my wife and only in a whisper:
> ''The
> > world is flat.''
> >
> > * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
> > * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *
>
> * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
> * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *
>
* To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
* etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *
|
