Ray, this message of yours looks like a well thought-out, carefully balanced analysis of fact and evidence (or lack thereof). Though I may not agree with it all, I generally agree with your analysis.

I was too young when we had Vietnam daily on TV (yes, we had that in France too), so I can't compare as much as you did. But I agree that the parallels are more than disturbing.

And I certainly agree with the "No minds are being changed" mantra.

Christian Lheureux
Directeur BU Infrastructure / Manager of IT Infrastructure BU 
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En mai 2004,APPIC RH devient BTW Computing, une activité du Groupe BTW
In May 2004, APPIC RH becomes BTW Computing, an activity of the BTW Group 
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] De la part
> de Shahan, Ray
> Envoyé : lundi 13 septembre 2004 15:38
> À : [log in to unmask]
> Objet : Re: [HP3000-L] OT: Enough already. No minds are being changed.
> 
> Well put, John.  I'm truly concerned that I see the same polarization of
> our country now as I did back in the Vietnam days.  There are those that
> say we are %100 right to be in Irag, and those that feel we are 100%
> wrong.  This polarization, while always present in time of war, is
> troubling because, as was the case in Vietnam, Irag posed no credible
> threat to the U.S., and just as it was in Vietnam, major U.S. companies
> not directly involved with arms production are making a financial killing
> off of this war (let's just go ahead and name Haliburton/Brown and Root).
> Once a war becomes big business, the reasons for being in the war can
> become even more cloudy and ugly.
> 
> I originally supported going into Iraq, but that's because I believed what
> my government was telling me...Iraq had WMD, and Iraq was courting the
> Taliban.  Hindsight shows neither claim to be credible.
> 
> I hear now the same rhetoric I did in the Vietnam era...we must keep
> fighting, so as to defend the honor of those who've already lost their
> lives...
> 
> All in all, the similarities between Vietnam and Iraq are too many, and
> very freighting.
> 
> In closing, I pray that our involvement in Iraq remains honorable (and
> there is honor in admitting we may have been incorrect).  Should we find
> that our involvement in Iraq is less than honorable, than we as a nation
> need to ensure that we don't blame our soldiers for Iraq as we did in
> Vietnam, but rather, we hold responsible, to the correct degree, the
> politicians/businessmen/military leaders that benefited from it.
> 
> 
> Signed, gott'a get some OT thoughts in now and again,
> 
> Ray Shahan
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [SMTP:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
> Of John Burke
> > Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 10:42 PM
> > To:   [log in to unmask]
> > Subject:           [HP3000-L] OT: Enough already. No minds are being
> changed.
> >
> > /RANT ON
> >
> > Our country and our world have real problems, none of which are getting
> > solved by hashing over what happened 35 years ago.
> >
> > Did Kerry embellish things from his past? Probably. As we get older, our
> > accomplishments tend to look better and our failures less important.
> This is
> > especially true of politicians, but it is human nature for all of us.
> >
> > Did Bush use family and political influence to join the Guard and get
> > preferential treatment? Probably. Who among us is above using whatever
> > outside influence we can to accomplish our goals? This too is human
> nature.
> >
> > I am a contemporary of Clinton, Kerry and Bush. I spent the better part
> of a
> > year stamped 1-A, USDA prime beef. For those of you who cannot get
> enough of
> > this argument, let me tell you what the world was really like in the
> late
> > sixties and early seventies if you were a young male 18 - 25.
> >
> > If you went to college, you automatically got a four year deferment,
> > provided you stayed in school. Thousands, perhaps even tens of thousands
> of
> > young men went to college, not because they necessarily wanted to or
> were
> > ready to, but because it bought them time to avoid the draft. By the
> late
> > sixties it was becoming clear to many of us that our government was
> lying to
> > us about Vietnam. There was nothing noble about what we were doing. We
> were
> > not protecting our country. I probably would have benefited from a year
> or
> > two bumming around the country/world before college, but I knew my
> > government was lying. I was not going to go die in some rice patty in
> > Vietnam for nothing. I entered college right out of high school.
> >
> > All governments lie. Kerry learned this lesson late, much like he
> learned
> > late that we had no business invading Iraq. He believed his government
> then
> > and he believed it in 2002/2003 when he voted to give GWB the authority
> to
> > wage war on Iraq because it supposedly posed a threat to the US. He now
> > recognizes Iraq did not pose a threat. Even worse, our government has
> no>
> > exit strategy and totally miscalculated the response of the Iraq people.
> >
> > But I digress. Kerry volunteered for Vietnam because he believed what
> his
> > government was saying. He was patriotic. He went. He served honorably by
> any
> > objective measure, risking his own well-being in the process. I respect
> him
> > for doing that. He learned we had no business in Vietnam doing what we
> were
> > doing. He got out as fast as he could and became an anti-war activist.
> He
> > was not the only one. He was not the first. He was not the last. Now,
> > thirty-five years later, he is simply the best known because he is
> running
> > for President.
> >
> > When I graduated from college (on time), my deferment ended and I was in
> the
> > same position as GWB. Many of our contemporaries did not have as a
> strong
> > feelings about the war as I did, they just knew it was at best an
> > inconvenience and at worse a death sentence and so tried to avoid it as
> best
> > they could. A popular option was the Guard. At that time the Guard
> rarely if
> > ever was deployed overseas, and certainly not in combat. Joining the
> Guard
> > was a safe, but acceptable, way to perform military service. It allowed
> you
> > to keep all your options open for the future - unlike moving to Canada,
> etc.
> > Of course everyone else figured this out at the same time and waiting
> lists
> > abounded. It was common knowledge in the late 1960s that you needed
> juice to
> > get into the Guard. While I did not personally try to get into the guard
> (I
> > mistakenly was blaming the military for Vietnam, not the old men in
> > Washington - if you want to get sick and mad all over again, watch the
> > documentary Fog of War), I had friends who did. None was accepted,
> because
> > none had any juice. Some ended up being drafted and some ended up
> enlisting,
> > because by enlisting they could have some influence on assignment. Some
> went
> > underground or to Canada. Others, like me, gamed the system hoping that
> the
> > longer we delayed, the better chance we would have that something would
> > change and we would not have to take more drastic measures.
> >
> > GWB had the juice to get into the Guard. He would have us believe the
> > country needed him to play airman flying around Texas and not flying
> combat
> > missions in Vietnam. I respect him if he just admitted he went into the
> > Guard to avoid going to Vietnam - because that is the truth. No one
> joined
> > the Guard in the late 1960s because it was a good career move or to earn
> a
> > little extra money. They joined to avoid the draft.
> >
> > My father, a WWII vet, was a huge hawk on Vietnam; that is until I got
> my
> > 1-A notice, at which point he became a dove. He supported my gaming and
> I am
> > absolutely certain that if he had any pull, he would have worked to get
> me
> > into a Guard unit.
> >
> > As it happened, I worked the system long enough (legal delays) to still
> be
> > out on the street when the first lottery was held. I went to bed
> thinking my
> > number was 63 and contemplating my next move (literally), but by mid-day
> of
> > the next day, I learned I was actually 308 - and safe. Let me tell you,
> a
> > lot of beer was consumed that night. (Get me a little drunk and I do a
> > funny - IMNSHO - 20 minutes on my whole military experience, including
> > pre-induction physical.) However, in the years since, I've felt pangs of
> > guilt because while I was delaying, gaming the system, someone else went
> in
> > my place. I wonder if GWB ever felt any guilt?
> >
> > So let's concede that Kerry has embellished and Bush used family
> influence
> > to ride out the war and move on to the real problems facing our nation
> and
> > world today.
> >
> > The Vietnam veterans who are so aggressively anti-Kerry are living in a
> > state of denial, still victims of Vietnam. I sympathize, but they need
> to
> > move on. They need to come to grips finally with the fact they were sent
> > over there to Vietnam to die because some old men in Washington were
> playing>
> > empire games. Just like today. America was not noble. We were not
> protecting
> > ourselves. We were in fact behaving like common street thugs and
> bullies.
> > And like street thugs and bullies, we met a nasty end. We lost. A whole
> > generation, a whole nation, was traumatized. We cannot win the war in
> > Vietnam 35 years later by trampling all over Iraq.
> >
> > I respect John McCain even though I disagree with him on a number of
> things,
> > because he has been able to put behind him an experience so horrendous
> none
> > of us can adequately comprehend. That folks is courage. The 50,000 names
> on
> > the Vietnam War Memorial are only a partial accounting of the costs and
> > casualties of that misguided adventure in imperialism. Add to that the
> tens
> > of thousands of missing body parts, the paralysis, etc.
> >
> > Then there are the tens of thousands whose wounds are not visible. My
> former
> > brother-in-law was wounded several times and decorated for his service
> in
> > Vietnam. The doctors put him back together physically, but mentally and
> > emotionally, ... At night when he tried to sleep, he would always go
> back to
> > Vietnam --- and wake up screaming. Several years after coming back he
> > snapped (nothing else can adequately describe what happened). He became
> a
> > different person overnight. Someone who worked full time in a factory
> during
> > the day, going to school at night getting all A's, suddenly deserted his
> > seven month pregnant wife and 1 1/2 year old son and descended into the
> drug
> > and crime sub-culture, bouncing around the country in and out of jail.
> The
> > last I heard, about eight years ago, he was in jail in Florida. It is
> > amazing he is still alive. He had the best psychiatric care the
> government
> > could provide, but in the end it did not work. He is part of the walking
> > dead of Vietnam, dead as sure as those whose names are on that wall.
> >
> > We are doing it all over again.
> >
> > And before any of you get your panties all in a knot, I supported going
> into
> > Afghanistan - I just wish we had finished the job - because the Taliban
> and
> > al-Qaeda were a threat.
> >
> > While the world is probably better off without one more despot dictator
> > (Sadam Hussein), we are being taught the lesson my parents tried to
> teach
> > me: the ends do not justify the means.
> >
> > John Burke
> >
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