Jerry,

you are right. The numbers of "trained iraqis" are actually higher.
However Kerry's $200 billion seems pretty accurate.
Bush has a tendency to diversify the amounts. Kinda like the accounting
methods of some companies.


The president also claimed 100,000 Iraqis trained to take over security
duties from American forces, but Iraqi leader Iyad Allawi told Congress
last week that there were only 50,000 armed and combat ready Iraqi forces,
after the Iraqi government was forced to drop 40,000 others regarded by his
government as unreliable.

Kerry said at several points during the debate that $200 billion has been
spent on Iraq — which he argued could have been used for health care or
social programs. But the Congressional Budget Office says the Iraq war and
reconstruction projects there have cost U.S. taxpayers $119 billion. The
additional $80 billion used by Kerry to come up with the $200 billion
includes supplemental funding the administration has asked Congress to
provide for both Iraq and Afghanistan operations for the rest of this year.



On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 12:56:25 -0500, Jerry Fochtman <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

>At 01:04 PM 10/1/2004 -0400, Michael Baier wrote:
>>Shawn, just looking into the face of george showed how unsure he was.
>>He offered no plan.
>>Told stories about having trained 100,000 Iraqis by the end of this year
>>when not even 10% are trained yet.
>
>One of the interesting parts I like is the follow-up done after the debate
>where
>they actually check/confirm the statistics/etc. used by either candidate.
>In the case of Brush's quote of 100,000 trained troops, yes, this is an
>incorrect
>figure, but then, so is 10% (or 10,000).   The data from Iraqis reported
>that the
>number is around 50,000.
>
>In terms of Kerry's quote as to the cost of the was being $200B, he too,
was
>incorrect.  Information from GAO in May indicated cost was $119B at that
>time and subsequent expenditures/etc. have brought that figure to $146B,
>so he too, presented some incorrect data.
>
>I didn't stay up any later to see if they presented additional examples of
>incorrect
>information being quoted as a part of the debate.
>
>
>
>
>>He mentioned that he talks all the time with the FBI-Boss when he is in
>>Washington. Problem is, he is never there. He's in crawford, Camp David or
>>fund-raising but not in Washington.
>>He's so unsure, that he can't admit a mistake.
>>Being smarter then Bush is not a huge problem, btw.
>>
>>On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 08:42:29 -0700, Shawn Gordon <[log in to unmask]>
>>wrote:
>>
>> >Bush crushed Kerry, who even managed to lie about the word lie.  Bush
made
>> >excellent points such as "How do you get the germans and french to come
and
>> >spend money and blood in iraq when you say it is a mistake and you are
>> >pulling out ASAP?"  that was just one of many very good points.  Kerrys
>> >"plan" appears to be "I'm smarter and will do a better job" - um, ok -
how
>> >about some details?  Oh, and I loved the very nuanced responses to Diane
>> >Sawyer the other day, it even had Diane with a confused expression on
her
>> >face and trying to clarify it, but just caused even more confusion.  It
was
>> >so bad that they played with it on the left leaning faux news/comedy
>> >program "The Daily Show" with Jon Stewert.
>> >
>> >At 08:38 AM 10/1/2004, Michael Baier wrote:
>> >>Kerry did pretty good in my opinion.
>> >>All George said was, if you are wrong and chief then wrong is right no
>> >>matter what.
>> >>Sounded so much like the excuses of Lay, Steward, Rigas and all the
>>others.
>> >>
>> >>3 Polls Show Kerry Won Debate Over Bush
>> >>
>> >>By TERENCE HUNT, AP White House Correspondent
>> >>
>> >>CORAL GABLES, Fla. - President Bush and Sen. John Kerry rushed back to
the
>> >>campaign trail Friday to try to convince voters they had won the debate
>> >>over foreign policy and to renew the argument over whether going to
war in
>> >>Iraq had made the nation safer.
>> >>
>> >>Three post-debate polls suggested voters who watched the policy-driven
>> >>confrontation Thursday night were impressed by Kerry. Most of those
>> >>surveyed said he did better than Bush.
>> >>
>> >>Kerry's running mate, Sen. John Edwards, said Friday he told Kerry
after
>> >>the debate "I think people saw the next commander in chief," and he
>> >>criticized Bush for failing to acknowledge problems in Iraq. "You can't
>>fix
>> >>a problem if you're not willing to admit that mistakes have been made
and
>> >>that you have a problem," he told ABC's "Good Morning America."
>> >>
>> >>Bush, however, believed he had effectively spelled out the strategy and
>> >>shown the resolve with which he is fighting the war on terror, White
House
>> >>communications director Dan Bartlett said. "I think he spoke from the
>> >>heart, spoke with strength about the necessity for our country to fight
>>the
>> >>terrorists over there so we don't have to face them here at home,"
>>Bartlett
>> >>told ABC. "He had a good time last night."
>> >>
>> >>Sen. John McCain, the Arizona Republican who informally advised Bush on
>>how
>> >>to debate his friend and Senate colleague, told reporters in Miami on
>> >>Friday that the debate was probably Kerry's "brightest moment" in the
last
>> >>six weeks. "He presented himself well, John did," McCain said. "Kerry
came
>> >>out slugging."
>> >>
>> >>Kerry's campaign prepared a TV ad that featured newspaper headlines
from
>> >>Friday praising the Democrat's performance. The Democratic National
>> >>Committee was rolling out a Web video showing clips of Bush appearing
>> >>frustrated at the debate.
>> >>
>> >>When Kerry leveled some of his charges, Bush appeared irritated and
>>scowled
>> >>at times and, at other moments, glanced away in apparent disgust. Kerry
>> >>often took notes when the president spoke. The television networks
offered
>> >>a split screen to viewers so they could see both men at the same time
and
>> >>watch their reactions.
>> >>
>> >>Bush knew he would be on camera during the entire debate and was aware
>>that
>> >>the networks had not agreed to show only the candidate who was
speaking,
>> >>Bush campaign spokeswoman Nicolle Devenish said. Regarding Bush's
facial
>> >>reactions, Devenish said: "The president reacted honestly. It showed
the
>> >>president really believes in his convictions."
>> >>
>> >> >From the first question, Kerry went on the offensive, accusing Bush
of
>> >>leaving U.S. alliances around the world "in shatters" and later calling
>> >>Iraq "this incredible mess." Bush said Kerry had voted to authorize the
>>war
>> >>he now criticizes. "That's not how a commander in chief acts," Bush
said.
>> >>
>> >>Less than five weeks before the election, Iraq dominated the debate on
a
>> >>day when a string of bombs killed 35 children and wounded scores of
others
>> >>in western Baghdad. Overall, more than 1,000 U.S. soldiers have died in
>> >>Iraq.
>> >>
>> >>Kerry summed up Bush's strategy for Iraq as "more of the same" and
>> >>added: "This president has made, I regret to say, a colossal error of
>> >>judgment. And judgment is what we look for in the president of the
United
>> >>States of America."
>> >>
>> >>Bush acknowledged that not every American agrees with the decisions
he's
>> >>made. "But people know where I stand," Bush said, suggesting they don't
>> >>know where Kerry stands. "People out there listening know what I
believe."
>> >>
>> >> >From Florida, Bush was heading out Friday to rallies in Pennsylvania
and
>> >>New Hampshire, two key battleground states. Kerry was spending the day
>> >>campaigning in Florida, where the presidential race was decided four
years
>> >>ago.
>> >>
>> >>In Thursday night's encounter at the University of Miami, Bush and
Kerry
>> >>drew heavily on oft-repeated lines from their campaign speeches but
they
>> >>faced each other directly across the same stage for the first time.
>> >>
>> >>On Iraq, Bush criticized Kerry for saying it was the wrong war at the
>>wrong
>> >>time in the wrong place. "What message does that send to our troops?"
the
>> >>president said. "Not a message a commander in chief gives."
>> >>
>> >>Repeating a line he has used countless times to show his opponent is
>> >>inconsistent, Bush tweaked Kerry for saying he voted for an $87 billion
>> >>spending bill for Iraq and Afghanistan before he voted against it.
>> >>
>> >>Kerry shot back, "Well, you know, when I talked bout the $87 billion, I
>> >>made a mistake in how I talk about the war. But the president made a
>> >>mistake in invading Iraq. Which is worse?"
>> >>
>> >>Trying to persuade voters that he is tough enough to be commander in
>>chief,
>> >>Kerry said, "I believe in being strong and resolute and determined.
And I
>> >>will hunt down and kill the terrorists, wherever they are." He said
that
>> >>Bush, in invading Iraq, lost sight of the goal of capturing terrorist
>> >>leader Osama bin Laden.
>> >>
>> >>But Bush insisted that "the world is safer without Saddam Hussein." He
>> >>called Iraq "a central part in the war on terror" and said 75 percent
of
>> >>bin Laden's leadership had been brought to justice.
>> >>
>> >>Trying to turn Kerry's criticism against him, Bush said, "I understand
>>what
>> >>it means to be the commander in chief. And if I were to ever
say, 'This is
>> >>the wrong war at the wrong time at the wrong place,' the troops would
>> >>wonder, 'How can I follow this guy?'"
>> >>
>> >>To Kerry's contention that he could summon broader international
support
>> >>for the war, Bush said, "They're not going to follow someone whose core
>> >>convictions keep changing because of politics."
>> >>
>> >>While Iraq was the dominant issue in the debate, there were notable
>> >>differences on North Korea and Iran, two nations suspected of pursuing
>> >>nuclear weapons programs. Kerry urged that the United States hold
direct
>> >>bilateral talks with North Korea, but Bush called Kerry's proposal "a
big
>> >>mistake" that would crush multinational talks and remove pressure from
>> >>China on North Korea. Kerry said North Korea has amassed more nuclear
>> >>weapons during Bush's administration.
>> >>
>> >>On Iran, Kerry said the United States should have worked with allies
like
>> >>France, Germany and Britain to impose sanctions if Tehran refused to
give
>> >>up its nuclear program.
>> >>
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>> >
>> >
>> >Regards,
>> >
>> >Shawn Gordon
>> >President
>> >theKompany.com
>> >www.thekompany.com
>> >949-713-3276
>> >
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