Hey Birket,
Tom is creative in the many tactics employed to avoid answering inquiries
and engaging in a dialog.
By the way, I don't have clear proof that M.B.Foster Associates Limited or
any of it's alleged products exist ... or even can exist without an
internal standards body or inspections by the International Atomic Energy
Commission, et. al. But not to worry. I believe they exist anyway.
But then I live on the grounds of a monastery so some might suspect my
grounds for proof have been compromised.
-- signed Gullible
> Hey Tom,
>
> Can you explain what you are doing other than splitting rabbits?
>
> I always took that the dictionary made the different in these languages,
> allowing default formatting of fields, and enforcing rules on the data
> entry screens. I am a sure that a good Powerhouse or Speedware programmer
> can out code a cut and paste COBOL programmer by about 10 to one making
> those fees you mentioned well worth it. It also means that a junior team
> member is able to code accurately the business rules since the default
> edits/values come directly from the dictionary, ensuring consistency.
>
> Have you used any of the languages you mentioned?
>
> Happy July everyone,
>
> Birket Foster
> M.B.Foster Associates Limited
> The 1-800-ANSWERS TEAM helping IT happen!
> 613-448-2333 xt 204
> 613-297-3168 Cell
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: HP3000-L automatic digest system <[log in to unmask]>
> Date:2015-07-12 12:00 AM (GMT-05:00)
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Cc:
> Subject: HP3000-L Digest - 10 Jul 2015 to 11 Jul 2015 (#2015-71)
>
> There is 1 message totaling 114 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. Wikipedia TurboImage article
>
> * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
> * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2015 11:16:55 -0400
> From: Tom Lang <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Wikipedia TurboImage article
>
> Per Ostberg wrote:
> "I would really like to understand your problem with '4GL'.
> Is it that they're (commercial) products, and therefor "can't be a
> language"?
> Is it that they don't have a documented, open, publicised standard?
> Is it a variation or combination of the above, or something completely
> different?
> I have *no* experience of the products mentioned previously, but have seen
> "sql-environments" so extended that they probably would qualify as
> belonging to the same group, and I fail to understand why they could not
> be
> called a programming language (surely, they're formally documented and as
> theoreically complete as any programming language). They're also another
> notch away from the hardware, in the "same direction" as "3GL:s".
> Could you be just slightly more specific? Please?
> /per".
>
> Computer Languages have been written about by such illustrious individuals
> as Donald Knuth, Noam Chomsky, Edser Dijkstra, and many, many others.
> http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/cl.html
> http://www.chomsky.info/
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra
>
> None of the above mention '4GL' anywhere in their writings.
>
> My problem with so-called Fourth Generation Languages is the use of the
> term 'Language' attached to a commercial product.
>
> In the context of computer science and architecture, 1st, 2nd and 3rd
> Generations of Computer Languages have evolved over time and these have
> become the Standard. They are also subject to the inspection, examination
> and auditing of National and International Standards such as ANSI and ISO.
> http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_tc/catalogue_tc_browse.htm?commid=45202
>
> The ANSI Standard for COBOL has evolved through COBOL-60, 61, 65, 68, 74,
> 85, 2002, 2014:
> http://www.ansi.org/search_results.aspx?menuid=search_results&cx=016411134356970301196:ufdyk3moz48&cof=FORID:11&q=COBOL&sa=Search
> (please be aware of the wrap-around)
>
> Companies do not submit their commercial products to such inspection,
> external examination or auditing. They claim 'proprietary property rights'
> or other legal mumbo-jumbo.
>
> Dijkstra described the 1st and 2nd Generations as 'Low-Level' and the 3rd
> Generation as 'High-Level' Languages.
>
> It is very easy for a marketing department at a commercial company to make
> claims that cannot be substantiated.
> I can say that the moon is made of green cheese, but that doesn't make it
> so, because of your prior knowledge of the moon.
>
> Companies, such as Cognos and Speedware have (and still do) make claims
> that their products are '4GL', but don't allow external examination of
> that claim. Nor do they submit their so-called 'languages' for examination
> or audit. Try searching the ANSI or ISO links provided for their names.
>
> We are all aware of how to code a program and submit it to the process of
> converting it to machine-code.
> A '4GL' should also be able to tell us how to submit its code. But with a
> product like Cognos or Speedware we are not allowed to inspect or examine
> the language or architecture. Neither are we allowed to question the claim
> that their product is a 'Fourth Generation Language'.
>
> I therefore maintain the view that creating a textual interface;
> submitting that to an Interpreter; then submitting the result to a
> compiler is not a 'fourth generation language'.
>
> HP's Job Control LANGUAGE (JCL) is a means of interacting with the Command
> Interpreter (CI). It is highly sophisticated and has evolved over many
> years, but it is not considered as a Language - just a means to an end. It
> is the language of communicating with the O/S.
>
> But if you are willing to pay a fat fee, you can acquire the '4GL' product
> and all the manuals which will keep you busy for a while. You will also be
> tied to a big contract explaining the do's and don'ts, and an escalating
> renewable, annual fee.
>
> SQL is a Systems Query Language but there is no claim (that I know of)
> that it is a '4GL'.
> It is akin to UNIX - everybody has their own flavour.
>
> Any and all companies who make claims of having a '4GL' should also make
> public:
> 1 - The Grammar and the rules of Syntax and Semantics
> 2 - The process of converting their code to a machine-code executable.
> (Mustn't involve an Interpreter or Compiler - it has to be a 'new
> generation'.)
> 3 - The price of the licence fee.
>
> They should also:
> 4 - Submit their so-called 'language' to a 3rd party for inspection,
> examination and audit, e.g. ANSI or ISO.
>
> Kindest Regards,
> Tom.
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> End of HP3000-L Digest - 10 Jul 2015 to 11 Jul 2015 (#2015-71)
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