Barry,
Apology accepted. I do think that in today's market, you will be hard pressed to find
any HP3000 shop where an operator does only operations functions. I do not know
of a single such shop. Even in my early career (mid 70's) I did more than operate the
machine. I was fortunate to work for a man that encouraged all staff to learn
eveything they could about all aspects of MIS, not just the job function they performed. I worked in a small college environment and MIS had 5 full-time employees, but my point is that we all worked together to meet a single goal. Every
position I've held since then has been the same....many jobs overlap due to need to
trim costs and maximize use of the company's assets (employees). I think a lot of it
has to do with the "teamwork" attitude .. We all pitch in to get the job done. And as
more companies move toward total quality management, if they have not already, the
lines separating positions will blur even more (else why do operators learn NT, Novell
and UNIX?). As in the 70s when I was expected to look for obvious programming
errors (in COBOL), I'll keep looking for clues as to why jobs blow up and seek the
solution rather than say "it's not my job." There's work to be done and I'd rather not
be territorial anymore than the rest of the staff here.
/descending from soapbox
Cynthia Bridges-Fowler
MIS Operation Analyst
IMC Global, Inc. / IMC Salt, Inc.
[log in to unmask]
>>> "Barry Durand" <[log in to unmask]> 02/07/00 12:38PM >>>
Cynthia,
My sincerest apologies. No offense was intended to you personally or
professionally. It was my experience at the previous place that I
worked that operators just sat and watched the computer. Obviously,
this is different in your case. From what you have told me, it is
obvious that you are more of a system administrator/manager than an
operator and based on your job description, it does not seem that 45+
(or much higher for that matter) is unjustified. In my past
experience, the system manager and operations were two different
functions. As someone else said about a location they once worked,
the operations staff would often do their college homework or
studying while backup was being performed was also true in the place
I last worked. Obviously, the site I was at was drastically
different from your experience. In response to one other comment you
made, again at the last site I was at, a bachelor's degree was not
required, only a high-school diploma.
I guess I should have qualified in my post that I thought that the
salary was high *if* all an operator did was babysit a computer *but*
if they had other duties (like the ones you mentioned), than the
salary was not too high. Usually I am diplomatic but I obviously
totally messed up on this one.
Again, my sincerest apologies to Cynthia and any one else I may have
offended. Any offense was not intended and was only a result of my
ignorance of the difference in 'operators' jobs and my assumption
that the definition of 'operator' is the same from shop to shop.
Humbly,
Barry Durand
On 7 Feb 00, at 8:45, [log in to unmask] wrote:
> We've been swamped for the last couple of months, so I apologize in
> advance for the delay in responding to Barry's post.
>
> <rant>
>
> I DO think Barry is totally offbase and I don't think geographic
> location has anything to do with it. The area of computer operations
> has evolved over the years and is much more, IMHO, than mere
> "babysitting" a system, especially the HP3000. I get the impression he
> thinks any "flunkie" can do the job. I strongly disagree.
>
> I take issue with Barry's comments regarding salary for an "operator's
> job" primarily because I don't think he is very well informed
> regarding what an operator's job entails anymore. I've spent most of
> my 22+ years on the HP3000 platform in the "operations" area and I do
> not think 45K is overpaid at all. Perhaps in years past, running a few
> jobs, decollating, bursting and delivering reports, loading paper and
> tapes was about all there was to it. However, in the last 8 years and
> 3 different shops, I've been involved in troubleshooting printer
> problems (a seemingly constant problem due mostly to user error or
> ignorance), troubleshooting TCP/IP problems on our networks, taking
> care of user security (in VESOFT) and generally responsible for the
> smooth functioning of all 3rd party operations related software
> (NBSpool, VISTA, JMS/3000, and VESOFT just to name a few...there are
> others). Also, in the last 3 shops I've worked in, the operations
> functions were combined with System Management.....two positions in
> one....and the demands of that function have been substantial,
> including being on-call 24x7 for the last 8 years (and I've been
> called upon at all times of the day and night, even when on "vacation"
> [er, what IS a vacation?). Not only that, I put in 50-60 hours EVERY
> week. Do I have a life? Sometimes I wonder. (By the way, I also
> backup our network specialist who is responsible for the Novell
> network and NT servers we have plus help field calls to our MIS
> HelpDesk).
>
> So you see, I don't see a 45K salary as too high. It is average, and
> in some cases, I think it is too low. My 50+K salaried programming
> co-workers don't have near the responsibility that I have in what is
> often a thankless job and they often come to me to solve problems they
> cannot figure out. As far as I am concerned, the fact that I am
> required to have a minimum of a bachelor's degree plus experience plus
> am asked to be responsible for the entire HP3000 network (we have had
> as many as 5 of them at one time in this shop), warrants decent
> compensation. A lot is asked of me as a mere "operator", I give 120
> percent everyday and I think a 45K salary is fair if not deserved (by
> the way, I make several thousand dollars LESS than this, and, if my
> employer paid me that much, he is entitled to get that kind of work
> out of me, don't you think?]
>
> All the operator's I've come in contact with over the past 8 or more
> years wear multiple hats in the MIS department. Operating an HP3000 is
> easy, it's the other functions that are demanding and deserving of a
> good salary. If you really want to get an idea what the current
> surveys say about salary's, take a look at the following web site:
>
> http://www.datamasters.com/
>
> Computer operator is not listed there, but even a PC applications
> specialist often makes more than $45k on average regardless of region
> of the country.
>
> </rant>
>
> Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
>
>
>
> Cynthia Bridges-Fowler
> MIS Operation Analyst
> IMC Global, Inc. / IMC Salt, Inc.
> [log in to unmask]
>
> >>> Barry Durand <[log in to unmask]> 01/28/00 11:16AM >>>
> 45K for an operator's job! 45K to sit and watch a system, mount a few
> tapes, print a few reports (granted that is on an automated system).
> On a non-automated system 45K is still a ton for running jobs (I don't
> care how many), printing reports, doing backups, distributing reports
> (including bursting and decolating).
>
> The Chicago area must be worse than the Silicon Valley, even then, I
> think that 45K is a good amount for babysitting (loading paper,
> mouting tapes, distributing a few reports). I may be totally off base
> on this especially being I am not familliar with the Chicago area so
> please forgive me if I am.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Barry Durand
>
>
> On 27 Jan 00, at 18:21, [log in to unmask] wrote:
>
> > 'Ya know, I'm starting to hear LOTS about that....
> >
> > For me, less than 45K wouldn't even persuade me to care that the
> > salary is less than 45K!!
> >
> > Al Karman
> > Senior Operations Analyst
> > Administrative Management Group
> > 847.870.9288
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mark Boyd [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 6:02 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Operations people and the agencies they
> > deal
> > with...
> >
> > Does it pay more than 45k a year? Cause most folks won't
> > back
> > out of their
> > garages for less than that.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ALBERT KARMAN [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 4:04 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Operations people and the agencies they deal
> > with...
> >
> > Greetings, fellow listers.....
> >
> > I've graciously been given the go-ahead to hire an HP 3000
> > operator,
> > with 2-3 years experience.
> >
> > My ? - does anyone out there know of any operators in the
> > metro
> > Chicago
> > area looking for a job, and
> > does anyone out there know of any agencies
> > (local/national)
> > who deal in HP 3000 ops?
> >
> > TIA!
> >
> > Yours in /iX,
> > Al Karman
> > Senior Operations Analyst
> > Administrative Management Group
> > 847.870.9288
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------
> Barry Durand [log in to unmask]
> Allegro Consultants 408.252.2330
> Opinions are mine, not my employer's
> ------------------------------------------
>
------------------------------------------
Barry Durand [log in to unmask]
Allegro Consultants 408.252.2330
Opinions are mine, not my employer's
------------------------------------------
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