Brice Yokem [mailto:[log in to unmask]] correctly noted:
=====================================================

My simple test for Republicanism is simple: can you ever imagine Lincoln
saying what Chuck wrote? Or what Tom Delay, Trent Lott, Dick Armey, Mitch
McConnell, Strom Thurmon, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell or Dick Cheney
commonly say (or
said)?

Wirt Atmar

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Yes I can.  Lincoln said some things which woudl be considered racist.
=====================================================

Lincoln did a lot more than just say things:  He unilaterally
suspended habeas corpus FOR US CITIZENS IN THE NORTH for much
of the duration of the Civil War (not just people in the South).
Just throw "Abraham Lincoln", "habeas corpus", and civil war at
google;  lot's of hits.

Many references have material similar to:

"....As a wartime president, Lincoln immediately appreciated the
importance of having a united country behind him. The difficulty
was that residents of the North were significantly divided not
only over how the war should be pursued but over whether it was
necessary at all......To maintain Union dominance, Lincoln sought
to suppress disloyal sentiment by suspending the writ habeas
corpus...."

Nearly 100 years later Franklin D. Roosevelt once again abolished
the writ in order to imprison Japanese Americans citizens during
the 2nd World War. Lincoln set a precedent which F.D.R later used
to justify his own wartime actions.


My read is that Lincoln essentially decided that the end (freeing
the slaves and preserving the Union) justified almost any means;
and did whatever it was necessary to win with a significant but
still minority in the North more-or-less opposed to the war.  On
balance was it justified, if the alternative was victory for the
South ??..  Whether or not the choice was that stark is hard to
tell;  my guess is probably not.  But remember that up until the
time of Gettysburg (and even to some extent for the next year or
so after), the issue was very much in doubt. Always wonder if R.E.
Lee had listened to General Longstreet and sent Longstreet's corp
around the Union left on Little Round Top;  or just got "behind
some rocks" like Longstreet also suggested;  instead of launching
the incredible gamble of Pickett's charge;  what the result would
have been.  Because of the overwhelming advantage of the North in
manpower and industrial strength the North might still well have
won even if they had lost at Gettysburg...  OTOH, if the Federal
army under Meade had been well and truly routed at Gettysburg
like they had been on other occasions, Lee might have marched on
Washington, and then who knows...  It was a close call.

My take in general:  The end does NOT always justify the means.
But some ends justify some means:
The Civil War was about as extreme a situation as the County
could face:  If the South had won, the Nation established by
the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution would
have ceased to exist.  Judging what means are justified for
what ends is the tricky part.  The one thing you can say for
sure about Lincoln's war time leadership:  He won.  The
biggest tragedy for the people of the South in the aftermath
of the Civil War was that Lincoln was assassinated when he
was.  If Lincoln had lived, I'm sure "reconstruction" would
have been a LOT less draconian.

A good example that is commonly used in law school classes:
If you had proof beyond a reasonable doubt that a terrorist had
planted a bomb that would kill huge numbers of innocent civilians
if it were not found and defused;  and nobody could figure out
where it was otherwise;  would authorities be justified in
torturing that individual to make them talk as a last resort ??
Some people say torture of any kind is never justified no matter
how desperate the circumstances.  I disagree:  A terrorist whose
only goal is to kill as many innocent civilians as possible has
made a deliberate decision to forfit their usual rights:  The
right of those innocent people to live overwhelms normal
considerations while those innocents might still be saved.


FOOTNOTE:
Let the record show I certainly agree that people who disagree
with ANY President's policies and are not acting in an overtly
threatening manner towards anyone, should be able to hold up a
sign on public property that sez "I disagree with your policies",
etc.  That's a fundamental free speech issue.  At the same time,
people who would like to hold up such signs don't have a right
to "elbow out" all supporters for the front row - center seats
right next to where any President is speaking either.  In the
case that was just being discussed, I think the courts will find
the right answer.


O.K.:  There's the one "OT:" post per more-or-less quarter I
allow myself...  What the heck:  Since it's "1 per quarter",
I'll let 'er rip:

(1)   Whatever "winning the war on terror" means, I'm a lot
more confident that we'll do better in that regard under the
leadership of President Bush compared to ANY of the Democratic
candidates now running.  Closest to the President on security
matters is probably Joe Liberman;  he would also likely do a
pretty good job on security.  But Joe's star is fading;  he
hasn't raised much money;  I doubt very much he has any chance
of getting the nomination.  Because:

(2)   If the left-wing liberal's current darling Gov. Dean
takes Iowa from Dick Gephardt (looking more and more likely),
Gephardt will be out;  Dean will beat Kerry in N.H.;  and then
baring some pretty extraordinary political event Dean will go
all the way (Clark ain't gonna get it either)...  And then it's
hard to imagine how bad both the economy and post-war Iraq would
have to get before the electorate as a whole would vote for Dean
over the President:  Ain't gonna happen;  i.e.:  It will be
McGovern-Nixon all over again (remember that Vietnam was not
exactly going swimmingly when Nixon was re-elected to his second
term in 1972 by a 49-1 State margin).  And the Republic will
survive, as it has for over 227 years..

Ken Sletten

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