Hi
Is there anyone on this list that believes George and Tony are going to war,
because they care about the people of Iraq.
"Saddam has personally sent his nation to war several times already. At
least
two of those occasions were unprovoked attacks against neighbouring nations
who had something he wanted. "
Can you tell me about the other five occasions then. Genuine question.
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Swanson [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 12 March 2003 19:24
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] OT : US uses Indian 'threat' to force Pak
support
Ok, lets get down to brass tacks.
Killing is Bad
War is Bad
Weapons of Mass Destruction, Bad
Oppression is Bad
Criminal Activity is Bad
Terrorism is Bad
Harbouring Criminals or Terrorists is Bad
You get the point...
Now I'm sure one could argue that damn near every world leader is guilty of
some or all of those "Bad things"
Unfortunately it's not quite that simple. It's a matter of degrees of
badness, if you will.
Saddam Kills folks in joblots. Many of them his own citizens. We are not
talking about a couple hundred we are talking about hundreds of thousands
over the coarse of his regime. By your own statement all life is precious.
Everyone of these people were someone's Father, Mother, brother, son, etc.
But Saddam doesn't seem bothered by any of that, because he keeps right on
doing it.
Saddam has personally sent his nation to war several times already. At least
two of those occasions were unprovoked attacks against neighbouring nations
who had something he wanted. NEVER in the history of Saddam's regime has he
asked the United Nations for approval for any campaign he's launched. He has
never attempted to use diplomacy as a tool against nations he attacked. He
has simply acted without regard for ANY law beside his own will.
There are international laws in place which govern the treatment of
prisoners of war, and which govern the nature of warfare itself. Saddam has
repeatedly violated all aspects of these international laws. He has
tortureed and abused POW's and he has supported terrorist organizations
which have repeatedly attacked non-military targets.
I'm sorry, but the recipe for a Just War to remove this monster and bring
him to justice is clear. If this was a Drug dealer or a serial killer we'd
have scores of agencies hunting him down to take him off the streets. But
because he's the self-imposed dictator of a foreign nation it's taken
decades to build up the moral backbone to do what's right for the rest of
the world and bring justice into Iraq.
I also think the world is mature enough not to go on a "rogue state hunt"
and target nations of opportunity no matter WHAT the USA wants to do. It
won't happen that way. But, I think this process will lay the groundwork for
a very important part of International Law. It will draw a line in the sand
which says, a nation is free to do what it will inside its own borders as
long as it follows the internationally created laws. A violent regime such
as Saddam's will not be allowed to build up indefinately. Eventually a
nation will be held accountable for it's actions by an international body. I
think in Law they call this sort of thing "Precedence" which is used as the
foundation of Law. Law that will bring us a little closer to that Perfect
World.
Dave Swanson
PS: I'm Canadian, we are the inventors of Peacekeeping and we take Peace
really kinda seriously up here. We also make it a habit not to immediately
agree with everything our big southern friends say. Just adding that because
I've actually given my opinion considerable thought before signing up with
the view that Saddam must go, despite the heavy price-tag that goes with
that view.
-----Original Message-----
From: James B. Byrne [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 12:32 PM
To: Dave Swanson
Cc: HP-3000 Systems Discussion
Subject: RE: [HP3000-L] OT : US uses Indian 'threat' to force Pak support
On 12 Mar 2003 at 11:38, Dave Swanson wrote:
> "War is just the exercise of Diplomacy by other means"
Clauswitz. "War is the continuation of policy by other means.",
often misinterpreted from the German as politics and sometimes
rendered "diplomacy" as a more appropriate synonym. However,
the actual word used is politick and and policy is an appropriate,
and perhaps more accurate rendering of the author's intent.
The world is not perfect, and adding to its imperfections out of
visceral fear is no course for a rational being to take, much less a
powerful state. The law is not perfect, but we do not shoot people
down in the streets because it frequently fails.
Does anyone actually have the right to possess a particular
emotional state? Is this sufficient cause to kill? How can one
guarantee the mind of another? After Iraq, who next will you fear?
Is the world required to render all American fears quiescent in order
to live themselves without fear of American attack? Whom will you
turn against next? France, because they defy your insistence to
conform? Pakistan? China? Russia? Korea? Japan? Libya?
Who? Where does your need to feel secure end? Who else must
surrender their right to live without fear to satisfy your parochial
interest?
This is why the law exists. This is why the strong must bend to its
yoke. Because there is NO security without the law, for anyone.
You cannot destroy all your enemies by force, but you can make
their number legion. Bismarck put it pithily when he said, "You can
do everything with bayonets, except sit on them." even Genghis
Khan recognized the truth of such statements, for he held that one
"Cannot rule from horseback."
You cannot make peace by sowing war. The plant the grows from
the seed cannot be other than its own kind. Diplomacy is only
exhausted when men tire of compromise and grow lazy, seeking
though violence a quick answer to questions that have no easy
explanation much less resolution. There is no point at which a
peaceful nation is compelled to attack another, ever. Such beliefs
have no more basis in reality than the idea that a man can be
convicted of a crime and executed for something he might do in the
future. No person, nor state, can presume to judge when it may kill
in a premeditated fashion, those that it suspects of planning an
injury. To admit such an idea into the 21st century is to revisit the
horrors of the 20th. We must get beyond this, and self-discipline is
the only way.
What will the United States, enfeebled and alone years from now,
cry to the world when some other power arises and mets out the
same rough justice because they fear the United States may try to
do to them what the United States once did to Iraq? Can you say
that they would not be justified? Are you not claiming that ready
access to the means and fear itself are the only measures of
justifiable violence? Can anyone else live without fear when one
person alone decides what is permissible and what is not, and kills
to enforce their opinion? Can the world live in peace when one
nation adopts the same position?
If the United States goes to war over this, then I do not see this as
the end of the United Nations, far from it. But it may very well be
the beginning of the end for the United States. The world cannot
long stand a bully in its midst, for there is no longer any place for
such. You may take pride in your strength and exult in your pre-
eminence, but all things ultimately fail. Britain was once thus.
Austria, Spain, even Italy had their day in the sun. All dust. Can
you see tomorrow? What will be the legacy the United States
leaves to their successors; justice, restraint, compromise, law? Or
arbitrary violence and self-interested conquest?
Turn from this willful path of self-destruction before it consumes all
that you hold dear.
It is ended. I will speak no more.
Regards,
Jim
--- e-mail is NOT a secure channel
James B. Byrne mailto:[log in to unmask]
Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca
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Hamilton, Ontario fax: +1 905 561 0757
Canada L8E 3C3
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