Shawnie,

Please, cease your foaming at the mouth because a fellow American had the
guts to cast an opinion at odds with yours.

I'm unsure where you infer my posting means what you think...my
problem...those in 'power' have successfully been able to wrap themselves in
the afore-mentioned icons....and good luck to everyone else.

Our President has successfully been a divider, not a uniter....iirc, in
contrast to 5year old comments.....


Al Karman
[log in to unmask]

-----Original Message-----
From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
Of Shawn Gordon
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 6:42 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] OT: Three Brazilian soldiers

Ted "the swimmer" Kennedy can throw around "quagmire" all day long, that 
doesn't make what we're doing anything like Vietnam, and it *is* nothing 
like Vietnam, which democrats got us in to.  Hard to argue with the fact 
that 4 years later and no terrorist attacks.  You've got huge changes, all 
for the good, going on in the middle east, a massive increase in rights for 
women, democracy workings its way in places you never would have thought 
possible.  The changes in the middle east of 8 years ago and today are 
dramatic, and for the good.

Al, I'm sorry to hear you don't like the bible or this country, you've 
always go the option to join a madrassa in syria
At 02:57 PM 10/6/2005, Al Karman wrote:
>Howard,
>
>Mighty compelling argument...prepare for it to become eviscerated by the
>crowd prone to wrapping themselves in either the Bible or the American
Flag.
>
>
>Al Karman
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
>Of Hoxsie, Howard
>Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 4:43 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] OT: Three Brazilian soldiers
>
>I have a hard time believing that the "neocons" did NOT realize that
>conducting a war externally will not prevent terrorist acts internally.
>I think Wirt's comments reflect exactly that sense of realism.
>
>In order to end this conflict we will most likely need another Richard
>Nixon "peace with honor" retreat.  As in 1968 when a powerful Texan in
>the White House couldn't "win it", the nation looked to the other party
>and it took that guy 7 years to get us out of Viet Nam.
>
>The rationale in the 1950's for going in was to stop communism before it
>came to our borders.  The only thing that stopped the spread of
>communism was its own non-viability, not that giant pile of dead
>American teen-agers.
>
>Do we need another heap like that?  Is it any wonder the neocons won't
>let us see the pile they're making?
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>Behalf Of Wirt Atmar
>Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 12:51 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] OT: Three Brazilian soldiers
>
>John writes:
>
> > I'm not trying to be political and assign blame.  I do believe that if
>we
> >  do not engage terrorism right now on foreign soil, then we're going
>to be
> >  forced to deal with it in our local municipalities.  We'll have buses
>
> >  blowing up in our neighborhoods for the next 100 years.  The current
> >  administration had no choice but to engage the enemy.
>
>If you believe that, John, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
>
>The invasion of Iraq was a wet dream dreamt up by a group of
>out-of-power
>"neoconservatives" during the latter part of the Clinton years. It had
>nothing to
>do with 9/11, other than 9/11 was used as a pretext for the invasion.
>
>Surprisingly, this group of neoconservatives was headed by a journalist,
>
>William Kristol, but the cabal contained people whose names you're now
>familiar
>with: Richard Perle, Jeb Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul
>Wolfowitz,
>etc.
>
>The underlying reason for their planned invasion of Iraq was
>encapsulated in
>their mantra: "The road to peace in Jerusalem runs through Baghdad."
>American
>foreign policy is greatly distorted by two groups, Jewish-Americans and
>Cuban-Americans, and as a result, our current relations with Israel and
>Cuba are
>neither rational nor are in our best interests.
>
>A substantial fraction of Kristol's neoconservative group is
>Jewish-American,
>and the protection and promotion of agressive Israeli tactics was their
>primary interest, not that of America's. Indeed, they became so
>emboldened with
>their plans that after the election of the current president, who I
>believe was
>basically clueless as to their ideas during the campaign of 2000, that
>the new,
>joking mantra became: "Everyone wants to go to Baghdad. Real men want to
>go
>to Tehran." Indeed they were so heady with their successes following the
>
>indecisive victory by Bush in 2000 that they had laid out plans for the
>subsequent
>invasions of Syria and Iran. Unfortunately, the wheels came off of their
>plans
>in Iraq. It was neither a cakewalk, nor were we greeted as liberators.
>
>The reason that the long succession of rationales for the invasion of
>Iraq
>haven't made any sense is that none of them are true, including today's
>speech.
>They're simply cover stories for the original plans, one
>misrepresentation
>after another, formulated specifically to be something that could be
>sold the
>American public.
>
>I haven't looked at their website in some time, but all of this is/was
>well-documented on Kristol's website, The Project for a New American
>Century, where
>the basic thesis that was argued was that the world will be a safer
>place
>because the United States will be feared.
>
>In a more just and equitable world, the current administration and those
>
>associated with the PNAC would be tried as war criminals for their
>promotion of an
>illegal and unwarranted invasion and the subsequent deaths of at least a
>
>hundred thousand people. The problem is that now we're stuck in Iraq and
>no
>serious student of the problem has any clue on how to extract ourselves
>from the
>mess that the current adminstration has created.
>
>Wirt Atmar
>
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Regards,

Shawn Gordon
President
theKompany.com
www.thekompany.com
www.mindawn.com
949-713-3276

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