Wayne after William wrote :

> > You would get the same argument with the Alsace Lorrain
> (sp?) area - over
> > the centuries passed between Germany and France. If by your
> logic Hitler
> > was perfectly justified in marching back to the Rhineland
> area then he was
> > justified in marching back to Alsace Lorraine - which
> Germany lost after
> > WW1, and retaking if from France.

Alsace and part of Lorraine have been shuttled back and forth between
Germany and France over the centuries. They are now two French regions, and
have continuosly been since 1944. Before that, they were annexed by the
Third Reich (I can't, in my mind, equal the infamous Third Reich with the
Germany that gave the World Goethe and Beethoven). Before that, they were
taken back by France in 1918. Before that, they were taken back by Prussia,
soon to become Germany, in 1871. Before that, they were taken by France
between 1648 and 1659, from a then not-yet-existent German nation (more a
collection of semi-autonomous regions).Before that, they belonged
(like -ironically ?- both what are now called France and Germany) to
Charlemagne's empire (so far the only European leader in history). Before
that, they were part of the Roman Empire. Before that ...

My point is to say that the inhabitants of these regions have at least twice
chosen to belong to France. CHOSEN is the important word.

> If the Rhinelanders wanted to be part
> of Germany then they should have been allowed to do so and
> Hitler allowed
> them to have their wish.

But they've always been part of Germany !!!!

The West Bank of the Rhine was demilitarized in 1919, but it was never
carved out of Germany ! Never !

That being said, It is relatively easy to imagine the frustration of the
inhabitants of these regions who, though fully German by law, were not
allowed to have the army of their own contry on their own land. It may be a
technicality that does not change much to Hitler's popularity.

If you really need a comparison, the fate of Alsace and Lorraine is more
comparable to the fate of Saarland, a Land (state, if you like) of Germany
bordering France and Luxemburg. After WWII, after the Federal Republic of
Germany was created in 1949, residents of Saarland were asked in a
referendum whether they wanted to be French or German. Useless to say, they
voted en masse to belong to Germany. See more about self-determination
below, but it all makes sense. Let's assume that referendum was a cheap
retaliation for annexing Alsace and part of Lorraine by the Third Reich in
1940. No pride in that, I guess.

> Hence his early popularity.  In
> Alsace-Lorraine -
> are the people French or German or possibly a mix?

As I said above, they have at least twice chosen to be French citizens.

> The UN
> supports a "right
> of self-determination".  The concept is good and could have
> been applied to
> the Rhineland (favoring Germany),

No, for at least 2 reasons. 1) Rhineland was NOT, I repeat NOT, taken off of
Germany. and 2) Hitler reoccupied Rhineland in 1935 and the UNO was founded
only in 1945, so it did not yet exist at the time. League of Nations ? Yes,
it existed, but it had too few members to be meaningfully relevant for the
purpose.

> Alsace-Lorraine (favoring
> France?)

This was done.

> Kurds
> (NOT wanting to be part of Iraq),

This one is pretty touchy. If you grant Kurds living in Irak a right to
self-determination, then you have to do the same for Kurds living in Iran,
Syria and Turkey. You may not exactly want to witness the reactions of the
legal, internationally recognized governments of these countries. BTW, a
"Kurdistan" was mandated in a treaty that parted out the British
Protectorate of the Middle East, I think in 1920. But it never came into
existence.

>  East Timorese,

This was done 2 years ago.

> Tibetans,

The Tibetans were nominally independent until 1950. The occupation of Tibet
by China is technically illegal.

> Northern
> Irish(stay in the UK)

At least, a peace process is in place.

>, Southern Irish(Independence),

Wasn't that done, in some way, in 1920 when the Republic of Ireland gained
its independence from Britain ?

> etc, etc
> and more etc.
> throughout the world.

Obviously Palestine comes to my mind.

> The currently relevant point is of course, the Kurds.  I'd
> love to hear the
> Bush admin clarify it's position on the Kurds and their future.

Oh, oh ... You're wandering into uncharted territory (see my comment above)
!!! Good luck !

> Wayne

Christian

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