Richard Gambrell wrote:
> Simplicity and designed for business are wonderful things in Image.
>
> Ironically, http://www.hp-eloquence.com/ might provide such a beast,
> but it's not open source. You can download a personal version for free.
> I wonder if HP would thown in a license for HP-Eloquence for those
> who migrate from MPE, but stay on HP hardware?   It runs on HPUX,
> Windows, and LInux.

What would be the benefit of it being open source?  Prices for HP Eloquence
start at below $1,000 and an unlimited user license can be had for less than
$10,000.  These are prices for a supported database!  I'm not sure making it
free and unsupported would be an improvement.

HP Eloquence is owned by HP Germany.  It is a complete HP 250/260
development environment.  It consists of both development tools (their own
version of BASIC) and a database engine.  I have been sloppy in that I refer
to the database engine with the same name as the entire product.  I will use
the terms interchangably since the only interesting part of Elouqence to HP
3000 users is the database engine.

The HP Eloquence database engine is an increadably good DBMS.  We are listed
as distributors for it because we have three years experience with it.  We
were part of a team that used it in a project to re-host 4 million lines of
MPE-based FORTRAN and C/iX code to HP-UX.  It is inexpensive and a very good
performer.  It has an installed base of over 3000 (no pun intended) sites
worldwide and has been arround for at least 10 years.  It is very TurboIMAGE
compatible.

Although it was originally intended to provide a soft landing for users of
the discontinued HP 250 and 260 users (sound familiar) by allowing them to
run their applications without modification on HP-UX it has taken on a new
life.  Most HP 250/260 users used products that were supported by
"solutions" ISV's.  The ISV's initial focus was to migrate these customers
to HP-UX and it was very sucessful in that role.

Roughly 4-5 years ago, HP comminssioned the original developer of Eloquence
and its contractor for support and enhancement of the product, Marxmeir
software, to port it to Windows.  In order to ease the migration to i386 and
little endian, Marxmeier ported it to Linux.  Today the product runs on
Linux and Windows and it can be ported to just about anything with a C++
compiler.  Most of the sales of Eloquence are on Linux through the same
ISV's who formerly sold it on HP-UX.  Some sales are on Windows as well and
there are a decreasing number of sales on HP-UX.

The experience of these mostly European ISV's is something to reflect on.
Their products were rendered obsolete because of the demise of the HP
250/260.  They were given a new lease on life by HP Eloquence, after that
the decline continued.  However, with the introduction of HP Eloquence for
Linux some of these companies are growing rapidly.  This reinforces Gavin's
view of the future for Linux.  Eloquence is not free, however, at the prices
I described, who cares?


Richard also wrote:

"I wonder if they would consider making an MPE
> version available to ease migration?"
I don't know, I'll ask.  There might have been some restriction on that in
the past.  However, in light the current circumstances that could have all
changed.


Charles Finley
Transformix Computer Corporation
760-439-3146
Fax 760-439-3146

> -----Original Message-----
> From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On
> Behalf Of Richard Gambrell
> Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 7:34 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: how can I on Unix
>
>
> Charles Finley wrote:
> >
> > David Thatcher wrote:
> > > SAPDB seems to be very robust in features.
> >
> > I found this with a google search:
> >
> > "SAP DB is an open, SQL-based, relational database system that
> provides high
> > availability and performance scaling from small to very large
> > implementations. In addition, SAP DB goes beyond relational database
> > technology by offering object orientation as well as support
> for managing
> > unstructured data. It supports open standards including SQL,
> JDBC and ODBC;
> > access from Perl and Python; and HTTP-based services with HTML or XML
> > content. SAP DB (formerly known as ADABAS) has gone Open Source. SAP DB
> > Version 7.3.00 is available for Linux, Windows NT/Windows 2000, Solaris,
> > HP-UX, Tru64, AIX. For those who don't want to pay for an Oracle-like
> > database with comparable functionality (and better than MySQL ;-)"
> >
>
> There are lots of choices...
>
> PostgreSQL is starting to get a pretty solid reputation behind it.
> There is even a "first port" for MPE that you can play with.
> http://www.postgresql.org
>
> Much of the "competition" is over tools among RDMBS.  Oracle likes
> to lock you in with pl/sql and proprietary tools.  Of course,
> other RDBMS may have unique features, too.
>
> I'm looking for a database to move to along side (or after) Image for
> business applications, not something with so many bells and features
> (e.g. Oracle) that I have to hire a couple of DBAs to keep it running
> well and help us use it well.
>
> Simplicity and designed for business are wonderful things in Image.
>
> Ironically, http://www.hp-eloquence.com/ might provide such a beast,
> but it's not open source. You can download a personal version for free.
> I wonder if HP would thown in a license for HP-Eloquence for those
> who migrate from MPE, but stay on HP hardware?   It runs on HPUX,
> Windows, and LInux.  I wonder if they would consider making an MPE
> version available to ease migration?
>
> With discipline, a RDBMS can be contained to just the set of features
> and practices that would make it attractive.
>
> Richard
> --
> Richard L Gambrell, Senior Information Technology Consultant and
> Director of Computing Systems and Networks
> Information Technology Division, University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
> Fax: 423-755-4150                Support Help-Desk: 423-755-4000
> Direct phone: 423-755-5316       ITD Business Office: 423-757-1755
> Mobile (urgent): 423-432-5122    Main UTC: 423-755-4111
> Email: [log in to unmask]
>
> * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
> * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *

* To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
* etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *