On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 13:50:26 -0700, Shawn Gordon <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

>At 01:45 PM 10/18/2004, Michael Baier wrote:
>>and you? !
>
>It's my company, I can do what I want, and I spend a heck of a lot less
>time on it than you.
>
>
>>Guess what, Maybe I am that good ;->
>>or the Unix is that slow compared to the old 3000.
>
>probably just poorly supervised.
>
>>and here is a report about the real situation in Iraq and not Georges's
>>fairy-tales or dream-works.
>>BTW, do you think we'd be in Iraq if the daugthers of GWB were drafted
into
>>a fighting unit or those of Dick?
>
>Nice of you to parrot one of Michael Moores talking points, but THERE IS NO
>DRAFT AND THERE WILL NOT BE A DRAFT.  The person trying to re-institute the
>draft was DEMOCRAT CHARLEY RANGLE of new York, and once a vote was forced,
>he voted against it.
>
>If their kids happened to be in the military, I totally believe their
>judgements would be exactly the same.
>

dream on. believe means "I don't know, right".
BTW, I even managed a successfull migration aside. darn am I good.    ;->
from the HP3000 to the 9000.


>
>>U.S. Mutiny Soldiers Say Army Ignored Complaints
>>WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. soldiers who staged a mutiny and refused to go
>>on a convoy in Iraq felt commanders ignored their plight when they
>>complained about the safety and condition of their vehicles, their
>>relatives said on Monday.
>>
>>Ricky Shealey, father of one of 18 soldiers who face discipline for
>>refusing an order to go on a convoy last week, said his son's commanders
>>dismissed complaints they were being asked to transport contaminated fuel
>>in broken-down trucks.
>>
>>"The command just totally ignored them when they told them this fuel was
>>contaminated and they were still gonna send them out on this mission with
>>contaminated fuel. They were completely aware of this situation and I
>>believe it's a command issue, not a soldier issue," Shealey told
>>CBS' "Early Show."
>>
>>Refusal to obey orders, especially in a combat zone, is a serious military
>>offense.
>>
>>Anxious to squash any suspicion of U.S. troop morale or discipline
problems
>>in Iraq, the Army said on Sunday it was investigating the "isolated
>>incident" and preliminary findings indicated the soldiers were worried
>>about maintenance and safety.
>>
>>Last year, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, Gen. Ricardo Sanchez,
complained
>>to the Pentagon his supply situation was so poor it threatened the Army's
>>ability to fight, said an official document revealed by The Washington
Post
>>on Monday.
>>
>>Army officials said most of Sanchez's concerns had been addressed and they
>>were keeping a close eye on the situation.
>>
>>Civilian and military convoys in Iraq, where more than 1,000 U.S. troops
>>have died and thousands have been wounded since the U.S.-led invasion in
>>March 2003, are frequent targets for roadside bombings and other ambushes.
>>
>>FRANTIC CALL
>>
>>The 18 soldiers refused to accompany fuel tankers on a supply run from
>>southeastern Iraq to Baghdad on Wednesday, arguing the fuel was
>>contaminated and their unarmored vehicles were in bad shape.
>>
>>The tankers had previously been carrying jet fuel and had not been cleaned
>>before the new cargo of diesel fuel was loaded, said Teresa Hill, who
>>received a frantic telephone message from her daughter Spec. Amber
>>McClenny.
>>
>>"Hi mom, this is Amber. This is a real, real big emergency. I need you to
>>contact someone, I mean raise pure hell. We yesterday refused to go on a
>>convoy. ... We had broken down trucks, non-armored vehicles and we were
>>carrying contaminated fuel," said McClenny in the message aired on U.S.
>>networks on Monday.
>>
>>Hill told NBC's "Today" show her daughter referred to the convoy as a
>>suicide mission.
>>
>>"She felt like the Army was just leaving them out there to drown," said
>>Hill, who said her daughter feared the contaminated fuel might be put in a
>>helicopter that could ultimately crash and add to the U.S. death toll in
>>Iraq.
>>
>>In an interview with ABC's "Good Morning America" show, Johnny Coates said
>>his son complained in one instance his truck broke down four times on the
>>way to delivering fuel.
>>
>>Like other relatives, Coates called his son a good soldier who felt he had
>>to take a stand. "I think he did the right thing. He lived to talk about
it
>>for one more day."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 13:29:49 -0700, Shawn Gordon <[log in to unmask]>
>>wrote:
>>
>> >sheesh Michael, I'm surprised you can even keep a job with all the spare
>> >time you have to read through liberal "news" sources and come up with
your
>> >various conspiracy theories.
>> >
>> >At 12:40 PM 10/18/2004, Michael Baier wrote:
>> >>http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/magazine/17BUSH.html
>> >>
>> >>Without a Doubt         By RON SUSKIND
>> >>Published: October 17, 2004
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Bruce Bartlett, a domestic policy adviser to Ronald Reagan and a
treasury
>> >>official for the first President Bush, told me recently that ''if Bush
>> >>wins, there will be a civil war in the Republican Party starting on
Nov.
>> >>3.'' The nature of that conflict, as Bartlett sees it? Essentially, the
>> >>same as the one raging across much of the world: a battle between
>> >>modernists and fundamentalists, pragmatists and true believers, reason
and
>> >>religion.
>> >>
>> >>''Just in the past few months,'' Bartlett said, ''I think a light has
gone
>> >>off for people who've spent time up close to Bush: that this instinct
he's
>> >>always talking about is this sort of weird, Messianic idea of what he
>> >>thinks God has told him to do.'' Bartlett, a 53-year-old columnist and
>>self-
>> >>described libertarian Republican who has lately been a champion for
>> >>traditional Republicans concerned about Bush's governance, went on to
>> >>say: ''This is why George W. Bush is so clear-eyed about Al Qaeda and
the
>> >>Islamic fundamentalist enemy. He believes you have to kill them all.
They
>> >>can't be persuaded, that they're extremists, driven by a dark vision.
He
>> >>understands them, because he's just like them. . . .
>> >>
>> >>''This is why he dispenses with people who confront him with
inconvenient
>> >>facts,'' Bartlett went on to say. ''He truly believes he's on a mission
>> >>from God. Absolute faith like that overwhelms a need for analysis. The
>> >>whole thing about faith is to believe things for which there is no
>> >>empirical evidence.'' Bartlett paused, then said, ''But you can't run
the
>> >>world on faith.''
>> >>
>> >>Forty democratic senators were gathered for a lunch in March just off
the
>> >>Senate floor. I was there as a guest speaker. Joe Biden was telling a
>> >>story, a story about the president. ''I was in the Oval Office a few
>>months
>> >>after we swept into Baghdad,'' he began, ''and I was telling the
president
>> >>of my many concerns'' -- concerns about growing problems winning the
>>peace,
>> >>the explosive mix of Shiite and Sunni, the disbanding of the Iraqi Army
>>and
>> >>problems securing the oil fields. Bush, Biden recalled, just looked at
>>him,
>> >>unflappably sure that the United States was on the right course and
that
>> >>all was well. '''Mr. President,' I finally said, 'How can you be so
sure
>> >>when you know you don't know the facts?'''
>> >>
>> >>Biden said that Bush stood up and put his hand on the senator's
>> >>shoulder. ''My instincts,'' he said. ''My instincts.''
>> >>
>> >>Biden paused and shook his head, recalling it all as the room grew
>> >>quiet. ''I said, 'Mr. President, your instincts aren't good enough!'''
>> >>
>> >>The democrat Biden and the Republican Bartlett are trying to make
sense of
>> >>the same thing -- a president who has been an extraordinary blend of
>> >>forcefulness and inscrutability, opacity and action.
>> >>
>> >>But lately, words and deeds are beginning to connect.
>> >>
>> >>The Delaware senator was, in fact, hearing what Bush's top deputies --
>>from
>> >>cabinet members like Paul O'Neill, Christine Todd Whitman and Colin
Powell
>> >>to generals fighting in Iraq -- have been told for years when they
>> >>requested explanations for many of the president's decisions, policies
>>that
>> >>often seemed to collide with accepted facts. The president would say
that
>> >>he relied on his ''gut'' or his ''instinct'' to guide the ship of
state,
>> >>and then he ''prayed over it.'' The old pro Bartlett, a deliberative,
>>fact-
>> >>based wonk, is finally hearing a tune that has been hummed quietly by
>> >>evangelicals (so as not to trouble the secular) for years as they gazed
>> >>upon President George W. Bush. This evangelical group -- the core of
the
>> >>energetic ''base'' that may well usher Bush to victory -- believes that
>> >>their leader is a messenger from God. And in the first presidential
>>debate,
>> >>many Americans heard the discursive John Kerry succinctly raise, for
the
>> >>first time, the issue of Bush's certainty -- the issue being, as Kerry
put
>> >>it, that ''you can be certain and be wrong.''
>> >>
>> >>What underlies Bush's certainty? And can it be assessed in the temporal
>> >>realm of informed consent?
>> >>
>> >>All of this -- the ''gut'' and ''instincts,'' the certainty and
>> >>religiosity -connects to a single word, ''faith,'' and faith asserts
its
>> >>hold ever more on debates in this country and abroad. That a deep
>>Christian
>> >>faith illuminated the personal journey of George W. Bush is common
>> >>knowledge. But faith has also shaped his presidency in profound,
>> >>nonreligious ways. The president has demanded unquestioning faith from
his
>> >>followers, his staff, his senior aides and his kindred in the
Republican
>> >>Party. Once he makes a decision -- often swiftly, based on a creed or
>>moral
>> >>position -- he expects complete faith in its rightness.
>> >>
>> >>The disdainful smirks and grimaces that many viewers were surprised to
see
>> >>in the first presidential debate are familiar expressions to those in
the
>> >>administration or in Congress who have simply asked the president to
>> >>explain his positions. Since 9/11, those requests have grown scarce;
>>Bush's
>> >>intolerance of doubters has, if anything, increased, and few dare to
>> >>question him now. A writ of infallibility -- a premise beneath the
>>powerful
>> >>Bushian certainty that has, in many ways, moved mountains -- is not
just
>> >>for public consumption: it has guided the inner life of the White
House.
>>As
>> >>Whitman told me on the day in May 2003 that she announced her
resignation
>> >>as administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency: ''In meetings,
>>I'd
>> >>ask if there were any facts to support our case. And for that, I was
>> >>accused of disloyalty!'' (Whitman, whose faith in Bush has since been
>> >>renewed, denies making these remarks and is now a leader of the
>>president's
>> >>re-election effort in New Jersey.)
>> >>
>> >>he nation's founders, smarting still from the punitive pieties of
Europe's
>> >>state religions, were adamant about erecting a wall between organized
>> >>religion and political authority. But suddenly, that seems like a long
>>time
>> >>ago. George W. Bush -- both captive and creator of this moment -- has
>> >>steadily, inexorably, changed the office itself. He has created the
faith-
>> >>based presidency.
>> >>
>> >>The faith-based presidency is a with-us-or-against-us model that has
been
>> >>enormously effective at, among other things, keeping the workings and
>> >>temperament of the Bush White House a kind of state secret. The dome of
>> >>silence cracked a bit in the late winter and spring, with revelations
from
>> >>the former counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke and also, in my book,
from
>> >>the former Bush treasury secretary Paul O'Neill. When I quoted O'Neill
>> >>saying that Bush was like ''a blind man in a room full of deaf
people,''
>> >>this did not endear me to the White House. But my phone did begin to
ring,
>> >>with Democrats and Republicans calling with similar impressions and
>> >>anecdotes about Bush's faith and certainty. These are among the
sources I
>> >>relied upon for this article. Few were willing to talk on the record.
Some
>> >>were willing to talk because they said they thought George W. Bush
might
>> >>lose; others, out of fear of what might transpire if he wins. In either
>> >>case, there seems to be a growing silence fatigue -- public servants,
some
>> >>with vast experience, who feel they have spent years being treated like
>> >>Victorian-era children, seen but not heard, and are tired of it. But
>> >>silence still reigns in the highest reaches of the White House. After
many
>> >>requests, Dan Bartlett, the White House communications director, said
in a
>> >>letter that the president and those around him would not be cooperating
>> >>with this article in any way.
>> >>
>> >>more pages on the link
>> >>
>> >>* To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
>> >>* etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *
>> >
>> >
>> >Regards,
>> >
>> >Shawn Gordon
>> >President
>> >theKompany.com
>> >www.thekompany.com
>> >949-713-3276
>> >
>> >* To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
>> >* etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *
>>
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>
>
>Regards,
>
>Shawn Gordon
>President
>theKompany.com
>www.thekompany.com
>949-713-3276
>
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