Just a point of humor:  For too many years I've been told that COBOL was
dead and gone, yet I still use it, and I still see a huge amount of it alive
and running well.  Now it appears that since COBOL is so well adapted at
somehow staying alive, they are going after the COBOL coders themselves?  Do
they not believe that unlike COBOL, we coders of COBOL are mortal, and will
die in time no matter what?  :-)

        -----Original Message-----
        From:   Charles Finley [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
        Sent:   Tuesday, February 13, 2001 9:27 AM
        To:     [log in to unmask]
        Subject:        Re: Cost of migrating COBOL Programmers to Java

        I both agree and disagree.  My experience is that there are many
classes of
        programmers.  However, for now, I just want to write about those who
use
        other people's code and tools and those who don't and those who will
change
        how they do things and those who won't.

        In my opinion, one of the most compelling reason to use some of
these new
        programming paradigms centers around productivity.     To me the
biggest
        source of productivity gains are from the concepts of reusable code,
use of
        classes and class like things (i.e. COM objects, Java Beans, CORBA,
etc.).

        That said, if an existing programmer is willing to change how they
do things
        in order to be more productive, I agree that they can be an asset.
On the
        other hand, all of my career I have seen people move into a new
paradigm and
        not change how they do things.  For example, code a 4th generation
language
        almost like assembler, or insist on writing all code from scratch.
I now
        also work with some gray beards who can program circles around some
younger
        people because they combine their years of experience with use of
improved
        tools and techniques.

        Charles Finley



        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On
        > Behalf Of Joseph Rosenblatt
        > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 6:56 AM
        > To: [log in to unmask]
        > Subject: Re: Cost of migrating COBOL Programmers to Java
        >
        >
        > We have been hearing for years how COBOL/FORTRAN programmers
        > could not learn
        > the new languages. "OOP is different," has been the rallying cry
        > of the new
        > technologists. I believe and I think many of you would agree, that
a coder
        > is a coder. People that can write good code in one language can
learn to
        > write good code in another. Thought process may vary slightly and
syntax
        > greatly but coding is coding.
        >
        > The main thrust of the Gartner piece is that it is not cost
effective to
        > train a Cobol programmer. Let us keep in mind that Gartner is paid
by and
        > caters to executives not cubicle dwellers. I saw the article
        > saying that it
        > is cheaper to get a JAVA kid out of school than to train long
        > time workers.
        > This totally discounts the years of experience the older employee
        > may have.
        >
        > If salary is the only criteria then definitely hire the
        > non-experienced. If
        > value is the issue then you may need to rethink that position.
It's an old
        > argument couched in a new paradigm.
        >
        > Just one old Cobol programmer's opinion.
        >
        > Joseph Rosenblatt
        >