In message <[log in to unmask]>, Denys Beauchemin
<[log in to unmask]> writes
>Comparing a desktop or laptop computer to a 918 or 937 is an exercise in
>absurdity.

But as, in a few years time, there won't be any 918s or 937s around (or
at least, nothing to be their contemporary equivalents), we have to
start thinking what else might do the job.

> First of all, the MPE system does very little compared to a Mac
>or a PC desktop or notebook.

So it ought to be easy for the desktop to carry the workload.

>Second, most anyone with an inkling of performance knowledge would
>laugh at anyone trying to use a desktop as a server.   Your 918 has one
>or more SCSI disk drives whereas the vast majority of desktops and
>laptop have a single IDE disk drives.  (Ok, my laptop has 3 disk
>drives, but I'm a weirdo and they are all IDE, not SCSI.) Third, the OS
>of a Mac or a PC is so not geared for multiple users and batch jobs,
>unless you use Windows NT/2000/XP.

1 IDE here, pretending to be two....

So it's hard for the desktop to carry the workload.
>
>But let's see if we can simulate an MPE environment on a desktop.  What
>would be needed?  Ric mentions 30-45 developers on a 937.  Grant me a PCI
>desktop with a network card, one or two disk SCSI disk drives and Windows
>2000 Server.
>
>Ok, the first thing is to disconnect the mouse, monitor and keyboard from
>the desktop.  The HP 3000 does not have a mouse or a monitor or a keyboard,
>no reason to burden the desktop with those things either.  Besides, they are
>what consume most of the CPU on these systems.

My mouse and keyboard don't go any faster than they did on my 8mHz
Vectra 286, and I don't think that (like a Winmodem say) their
functionality has been offloaded onto the CPU any.

My current machine has 800mHz under the hood. 100 times more.

WRT the graphics, I'm running 1280*1024*32m colours (24 bits, call it
32), whereas before I was running 640*480*256 colours (8 bits). I get
factor 17. But my CPU is 100 times faster. And oops, I forgot the
graphics card with its hardware assist. Actually, I think that alone is
several orders of magnitude faster than the whole Vectra was.

So if you are *serious* about this assertion, better tell me what I've
missed in this logic.

>Next, you only access the desktop via the network. Just like an MPE system.
>Ok, now connect a bunch of people over the network and have them type their
>programs, line by line into an editor, no GUIs allowed.  When they are
>finished, they can compile their programs, again no GUIs allowed, simple
>command line stuff.  BTW, you can run some batch jobs in the background, no
>GUIs.
>
>See it's running well, no problems.  BTW, the system I described above is
>very similar to an A-class box, don't you think?

It's not very similar to what people *want* though, is it?

No good having developers unless people are going to run their programs
to assist in the actual functioning of their business.

>Get real and stop with the silly, pointless comparisons.

What you mean like talking about developer workloads, when the real
issue is production ones?

>  A desktop or laptop has many uses, an MPE box only has one, to run
>command line programs really, really fast.

The people I support, who spend their days in a menu-driven VPLUS
system, would find that a *very* odd assertion. Not only because the
command-line interface is long gone (VPLUS was an advanced GUI in its
day, no matter that it hasn't kept up).

But because, although speed is good, they reckon that just as long as
they have enough power to keep up with their typing, pretty much, they
would prefer the MPE box to give them a *balanced* workload. And of
course, run batch jobs too, as fast as possible in the gaps. And print
stuff. And of course, not break...

> You will never play music, burn CDs, play video games,
>work on digital photographs, scan in documents, watch a DVD movie, do Visual
>BASIC or Visual C++ development, browse the web and dictate documents on the
>HP 3000.  I can do all that, at the same time on my notebook PC.  (Well most
>of it, it's kind of silly to watch a movie, listen to CDs and dictate a
>document all at the same time.)

I'm still totally lost in what you are saying. Is this supposed to be
good or bad? Because a PC *can* do these things, does that mean it *has*
to? Does that mean it *can't* do anything else?

I'm not trying to have MPE run like a PC. I'm thinking of a PC running
like MPE. The whole of the above, maybe, can be summarised by my
observation that sport car (PC) <> panel van (HP3000 running MPE); even
though the power of the engines may be about the same, the way they are
harnessed and the load capacity (1 person extremely fast, but not much
luggage, or a *load* of luggage quite quickly) differentiate them.
--
Roy Brown        'Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be
Kelmscott Ltd     useful, or believe to be beautiful'  William Morris

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