They both had their good points and not so good points.  The debaters
both skirted the questions.  
Kerry even countered himself when responding to one of the questions.
My daughter couldn't believe what she had just heard.
Bush sounded like a broken record, repeating the same thing.  But then
so did Kerry, when he wasn't countering his earlier statements.
After 45 minutes of this circus I turned off the tv and found something
better to do with my time.

Political debates do nothing, these dazes, in helping one find out where
the candidate stands on an issue.  The one last night sounded more like
a long winded two-edged commercial.  Everyone who listened to it already
had their minds made up and this list is proving that statement.


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Baier [mailto:[log in to unmask]] 
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 10:04 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] OT: The Debates

Shawn, just looking into the face of george showed how unsure he was.
He offered no plan.
Told stories about having trained 100,000 Iraqis by the end of this year
when not even 10% are trained yet.
He mentioned that he talks all the time with the FBI-Boss when he is in
Washington. Problem is, he is never there. He's in crawford, Camp David
or fund-raising but not in Washington.
He's so unsure, that he can't admit a mistake.
Being smarter then Bush is not a huge problem, btw.

On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 08:42:29 -0700, Shawn Gordon <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

>Bush crushed Kerry, who even managed to lie about the word lie.  Bush 
>made excellent points such as "How do you get the germans and french to

>come and spend money and blood in iraq when you say it is a mistake and

>you are pulling out ASAP?"  that was just one of many very good points.

>Kerrys "plan" appears to be "I'm smarter and will do a better job" - 
>um, ok - how about some details?  Oh, and I loved the very nuanced 
>responses to Diane Sawyer the other day, it even had Diane with a 
>confused expression on her face and trying to clarify it, but just 
>caused even more confusion.  It was so bad that they played with it on 
>the left leaning faux news/comedy program "The Daily Show" with Jon
Stewert.
>
>At 08:38 AM 10/1/2004, Michael Baier wrote:
>>Kerry did pretty good in my opinion.
>>All George said was, if you are wrong and chief then wrong is right no

>>matter what.
>>Sounded so much like the excuses of Lay, Steward, Rigas and all the
others.
>>
>>3 Polls Show Kerry Won Debate Over Bush
>>
>>By TERENCE HUNT, AP White House Correspondent
>>
>>CORAL GABLES, Fla. - President Bush and Sen. John Kerry rushed back to

>>the campaign trail Friday to try to convince voters they had won the 
>>debate over foreign policy and to renew the argument over whether 
>>going to war in Iraq had made the nation safer.
>>
>>Three post-debate polls suggested voters who watched the policy-driven

>>confrontation Thursday night were impressed by Kerry. Most of those 
>>surveyed said he did better than Bush.
>>
>>Kerry's running mate, Sen. John Edwards, said Friday he told Kerry 
>>after the debate "I think people saw the next commander in chief," and

>>he criticized Bush for failing to acknowledge problems in Iraq. "You 
>>can't
fix
>>a problem if you're not willing to admit that mistakes have been made 
>>and that you have a problem," he told ABC's "Good Morning America."
>>
>>Bush, however, believed he had effectively spelled out the strategy 
>>and shown the resolve with which he is fighting the war on terror, 
>>White House communications director Dan Bartlett said. "I think he 
>>spoke from the heart, spoke with strength about the necessity for our 
>>country to fight
the
>>terrorists over there so we don't have to face them here at home,"
Bartlett
>>told ABC. "He had a good time last night."
>>
>>Sen. John McCain, the Arizona Republican who informally advised Bush 
>>on
how
>>to debate his friend and Senate colleague, told reporters in Miami on 
>>Friday that the debate was probably Kerry's "brightest moment" in the 
>>last six weeks. "He presented himself well, John did," McCain said. 
>>"Kerry came out slugging."
>>
>>Kerry's campaign prepared a TV ad that featured newspaper headlines 
>>from Friday praising the Democrat's performance. The Democratic 
>>National Committee was rolling out a Web video showing clips of Bush 
>>appearing frustrated at the debate.
>>
>>When Kerry leveled some of his charges, Bush appeared irritated and
scowled
>>at times and, at other moments, glanced away in apparent disgust. 
>>Kerry often took notes when the president spoke. The television 
>>networks offered a split screen to viewers so they could see both men 
>>at the same time and watch their reactions.
>>
>>Bush knew he would be on camera during the entire debate and was aware
that
>>the networks had not agreed to show only the candidate who was 
>>speaking, Bush campaign spokeswoman Nicolle Devenish said. Regarding 
>>Bush's facial reactions, Devenish said: "The president reacted 
>>honestly. It showed the president really believes in his convictions."
>>
>> >From the first question, Kerry went on the offensive, accusing Bush 
>> >of
>>leaving U.S. alliances around the world "in shatters" and later 
>>calling Iraq "this incredible mess." Bush said Kerry had voted to 
>>authorize the
war
>>he now criticizes. "That's not how a commander in chief acts," Bush
said.
>>
>>Less than five weeks before the election, Iraq dominated the debate on

>>a day when a string of bombs killed 35 children and wounded scores of 
>>others in western Baghdad. Overall, more than 1,000 U.S. soldiers have

>>died in Iraq.
>>
>>Kerry summed up Bush's strategy for Iraq as "more of the same" and
>>added: "This president has made, I regret to say, a colossal error of 
>>judgment. And judgment is what we look for in the president of the 
>>United States of America."
>>
>>Bush acknowledged that not every American agrees with the decisions 
>>he's made. "But people know where I stand," Bush said, suggesting they

>>don't know where Kerry stands. "People out there listening know what I
believe."
>>
>> >From Florida, Bush was heading out Friday to rallies in Pennsylvania

>> >and
>>New Hampshire, two key battleground states. Kerry was spending the day

>>campaigning in Florida, where the presidential race was decided four 
>>years ago.
>>
>>In Thursday night's encounter at the University of Miami, Bush and 
>>Kerry drew heavily on oft-repeated lines from their campaign speeches 
>>but they faced each other directly across the same stage for the first
time.
>>
>>On Iraq, Bush criticized Kerry for saying it was the wrong war at the
wrong
>>time in the wrong place. "What message does that send to our troops?" 
>>the president said. "Not a message a commander in chief gives."
>>
>>Repeating a line he has used countless times to show his opponent is 
>>inconsistent, Bush tweaked Kerry for saying he voted for an $87 
>>billion spending bill for Iraq and Afghanistan before he voted against
it.
>>
>>Kerry shot back, "Well, you know, when I talked bout the $87 billion, 
>>I made a mistake in how I talk about the war. But the president made a

>>mistake in invading Iraq. Which is worse?"
>>
>>Trying to persuade voters that he is tough enough to be commander in
chief,
>>Kerry said, "I believe in being strong and resolute and determined. 
>>And I will hunt down and kill the terrorists, wherever they are." He 
>>said that Bush, in invading Iraq, lost sight of the goal of capturing 
>>terrorist leader Osama bin Laden.
>>
>>But Bush insisted that "the world is safer without Saddam Hussein." He

>>called Iraq "a central part in the war on terror" and said 75 percent 
>>of bin Laden's leadership had been brought to justice.
>>
>>Trying to turn Kerry's criticism against him, Bush said, "I understand
what
>>it means to be the commander in chief. And if I were to ever say, 
>>'This is the wrong war at the wrong time at the wrong place,' the 
>>troops would wonder, 'How can I follow this guy?'"
>>
>>To Kerry's contention that he could summon broader international 
>>support for the war, Bush said, "They're not going to follow someone 
>>whose core convictions keep changing because of politics."
>>
>>While Iraq was the dominant issue in the debate, there were notable 
>>differences on North Korea and Iran, two nations suspected of pursuing

>>nuclear weapons programs. Kerry urged that the United States hold 
>>direct bilateral talks with North Korea, but Bush called Kerry's 
>>proposal "a big mistake" that would crush multinational talks and 
>>remove pressure from China on North Korea. Kerry said North Korea has 
>>amassed more nuclear weapons during Bush's administration.
>>
>>On Iran, Kerry said the United States should have worked with allies 
>>like France, Germany and Britain to impose sanctions if Tehran refused

>>to give up its nuclear program.
>>
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>
>
>Regards,
>
>Shawn Gordon
>President
>theKompany.com
>www.thekompany.com
>949-713-3276
>
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