Hello Denys,
Thank you for your remarks. I think most journalists appreciate a
healthy skepticism amongst their readers, at least if there is any real
sense of journalistic integrity inside them. I may not think of you as
a journalist exactly, but I'll continue to maintain my skepticism when
reading your posts. :-)
Regards,
Howard Hoxsie
-----Original Message-----
From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Denys Beauchemin
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 7:51 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] OT: Three Brazilian soldiers
Howard, your post has actually given me some hope that people on this
list
are actually able to discern things.
I try not to use phrases like "the truth" as others do, because
unfortunately that may be subjective. If I tell you that what I am
telling
you is the truth, run far, run fast. Anybody who uses that phrase is
usually delusional or just plain lying.
What I have been trying to do for several years now, is to tell you that
what is "universally" believed is totally subject to questioning. The
stronger it is presented to you, the more it should be questioned, to
YOUR
satisfaction.
The Internet enables anyone with a modicum of brains to be able to
research
anything; the web knows all. The trick is to isolate what is reality
from
propaganda. (Notice, I didn't use the word "truth" here either.)
A prime example of how the MSM disinforms us all is the recent Katrina
reporting. They ALL lied, made up stories and reported rumors as facts.
All the reporters and journalists lied. Did they do this on purpose?
Not
really, but they wanted to believe it so they reported it.
If they can disinform us about events in our own country, imagine what
they
can do about events overseas.
I always try to raise questions and present another aspect regarding the
"conventional wisdom" (or the NYT lies) about various things. If it
comes
across as propaganda, well I apologize for that, it was not my intent.
I am very pleased that you question it however, and for that I am
thankful.
Remember, virtually all journalists and reporters now have their own
little
agendas; they think they can present the news accurately but that is no
longer a concept or a goal to which most reporters and journalists
aspire.
They are only after ratings and their little agendas. And that is very
sad.
The days of the real journalists are long gone.
BTW, that goes for Foxnews as well as CNN, BBC, NBC, ABC, CBS, CBC, NYT,
LATimes and all the others.
So keep asking questions and confront people.
Denys
-----Original Message-----
From: Hoxsie, Howard [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 1:12 PM
To: [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: [HP3000-L] OT: Three Brazilian soldiers
Denys,
I have no disagreement with you regarding your assertion that "we are
being 'disinformed' and propagandized to as never before", but since you
can't possibly have any idea what I actually read or believe, you brand
yourself as the propagandist.
Or, perhaps you didn't mean disinformation and propagandizing on the
List specifically, or did you? :-)
Seriously, I do enjoy, in an odd way, the soft and fleshy swords of the
rabid right in this forum. It's rather like watching a baseball fight.
If I want some really cutting remarks I'll read some of the dreaded
"main stream media" you're foaming about.
Howard
-----Original Message-----
From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Denys Beauchemin
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 8:28 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] OT: Three Brazilian soldiers
Compelling in what sense? The argument shows a total disregard of
reality.
It is written by someone who gets the news from the MSM and actually
believes it.
The MSM did a horrible job of reporting all manners of fake stories,
unfounded rumors and hyperbole regarding Katrina and its aftermath. And
this is right here in the US of A. How could you even think of
believing
anything being reported by the MSM about Iraq, Afghanistan or anywhere
else
for that matter?
The MSM and that includes CNN, MSNBC, Fox, NYT, LA Times, ABC, CBS, NBC,
BBC
and all others only care about ratings or their own little agendas.
In an age of instant global communications we are being disinformed and
propagandized to as never before.
Denys
-----Original Message-----
From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf
Of Al Karman
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 4:57 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] OT: Three Brazilian soldiers
Howard,
Mighty compelling argument...prepare for it to become eviscerated by the
crowd prone to wrapping themselves in either the Bible or the American
Flag.
Al Karman
-----Original Message-----
From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf
Of Hoxsie, Howard
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 4:43 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] OT: Three Brazilian soldiers
I have a hard time believing that the "neocons" did NOT realize that
conducting a war externally will not prevent terrorist acts internally.
I think Wirt's comments reflect exactly that sense of realism.
In order to end this conflict we will most likely need another Richard
Nixon "peace with honor" retreat. As in 1968 when a powerful Texan in
the White House couldn't "win it", the nation looked to the other party
and it took that guy 7 years to get us out of Viet Nam.
The rationale in the 1950's for going in was to stop communism before it
came to our borders. The only thing that stopped the spread of
communism was its own non-viability, not that giant pile of dead
American teen-agers.
Do we need another heap like that? Is it any wonder the neocons won't
let us see the pile they're making?
-----Original Message-----
From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Wirt Atmar
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 12:51 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] OT: Three Brazilian soldiers
John writes:
> I'm not trying to be political and assign blame. I do believe that if
we
> do not engage terrorism right now on foreign soil, then we're going
to be
> forced to deal with it in our local municipalities. We'll have buses
> blowing up in our neighborhoods for the next 100 years. The current
> administration had no choice but to engage the enemy.
If you believe that, John, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
The invasion of Iraq was a wet dream dreamt up by a group of
out-of-power
"neoconservatives" during the latter part of the Clinton years. It had
nothing to
do with 9/11, other than 9/11 was used as a pretext for the invasion.
Surprisingly, this group of neoconservatives was headed by a journalist,
William Kristol, but the cabal contained people whose names you're now
familiar
with: Richard Perle, Jeb Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul
Wolfowitz,
etc.
The underlying reason for their planned invasion of Iraq was
encapsulated in
their mantra: "The road to peace in Jerusalem runs through Baghdad."
American
foreign policy is greatly distorted by two groups, Jewish-Americans and
Cuban-Americans, and as a result, our current relations with Israel and
Cuba are
neither rational nor are in our best interests.
A substantial fraction of Kristol's neoconservative group is
Jewish-American,
and the protection and promotion of agressive Israeli tactics was their
primary interest, not that of America's. Indeed, they became so
emboldened with
their plans that after the election of the current president, who I
believe was
basically clueless as to their ideas during the campaign of 2000, that
the new,
joking mantra became: "Everyone wants to go to Baghdad. Real men want to
go
to Tehran." Indeed they were so heady with their successes following the
indecisive victory by Bush in 2000 that they had laid out plans for the
subsequent
invasions of Syria and Iran. Unfortunately, the wheels came off of their
plans
in Iraq. It was neither a cakewalk, nor were we greeted as liberators.
The reason that the long succession of rationales for the invasion of
Iraq
haven't made any sense is that none of them are true, including today's
speech.
They're simply cover stories for the original plans, one
misrepresentation
after another, formulated specifically to be something that could be
sold the
American public.
I haven't looked at their website in some time, but all of this is/was
well-documented on Kristol's website, The Project for a New American
Century, where
the basic thesis that was argued was that the world will be a safer
place
because the United States will be feared.
In a more just and equitable world, the current administration and those
associated with the PNAC would be tried as war criminals for their
promotion of an
illegal and unwarranted invasion and the subsequent deaths of at least a
hundred thousand people. The problem is that now we're stuck in Iraq and
no
serious student of the problem has any clue on how to extract ourselves
from the
mess that the current adminstration has created.
Wirt Atmar
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