In message <[log in to unmask]>, Bruce Toback
<[log in to unmask]> writes
>Alan Yeo writes:
>
>>I still don't believe in the end its any quicker to develop mission
>>critical applications in P/J/J rather than I/C/V. Quicker maybe to dash
>>something off. But by the time you build a real multi user mission
>>critical application, with logging, recovery etc. I think I'd still put
>>my money on a fully tooled up Image/Cobol team any day. And as for
>>support and ongoing maintainability.
>
>Oddly enough, DBMSs other than IMAGE have logging and recovery.

I wasn't for a minute suggesting that they don't, just that their almost
impossible to get wrong on the 3000. With the right template to work
from that is.

>
>The use of powerful tools doesn't mean that you can get away with bad
>design, and as I've said before, good design is as scarce as it ever was.

Too True.
>
>
>A power saw doesn't obviate the need for an architect. But if we're both
>equally skilled carpenters, and I'm following the plans for a
>well-designed house using power tools and you're following the plans
>using hand tools, I'm going to finish before you do. And because we were
>both following a good plan, my house will stand up just as long as yours.
>My quality might even be better than yours, because the tools make it
>easier to be consistent.

We might follow this train of thought and consider that a lot of power
tools in the hands of the untrained, might create a lot more havoc than
giving them a hammer and a chisel.

I am also sure that if you asked any of the COBOL developers on this
list they would say they have a huge arsenal of power tools available as
well. Although I will admit they probably had to use their hand tools in
the first place to make their power tools. And sometimes having hand
tools around can be useful, especially if the power goes. Now who's in
CA :-)


>
>>And with tools like ScreenJet available for the 3000 now even the
>>Image/Cobol people can create flashy GUI screens for their apps in the
>>same time as anyone else.
>
>"Flashy GUI screens" -- when well-designed, which is usually not the case
>-- result in greater user productivity and reduced fatigue.
>

I wasn't knocking GUI screens, I just spent the last two years of my
life bringing the technology to do it to the 3000.

And whilst I wouldn't disagree with you on user productivity and
fatigue, I would qualify it that in many data entry environments a
classic V/Plus or character mode is far more productive to experienced
users. But far more difficult for occasional or new users and almost
unsaleable now.



Alan Yeo
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